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Tradewind
Admiral

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USA
531 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/11/2006 : 16:13:25

I'm currently looking at an '83 C25 SK. I'm new to Catalinas, small boats and lake sailimg, all my sailing has been coastal, offshore and in a larger boat, I lost my Cal 36 to IVAN. I know nothing about swing keels other than what I've read on this very informative board and in tech tips.

I'd like to become a part of the C25 community and would appreciate any help in what to look for on this boat, anything to be added to the great info in tech tips.

I plan to keep the boat on West Point Lake, Georgia.

Thanks

1998 250WK #331
CILCIA
Steve
Pensacola, FL

Edited by - on

rich
Deckhand

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24 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2006 : 17:17:33

Not much to add that you can not find in the tech tips and posts on this forum. The search function works well for finding specific info. There is one post on what to look for in shopping for a Catalina 25 in the tech forum that I found helpful in looking for a Catalina 25 sail boat. I LOVE my Catalina 25 that I have owned for only 4 months. It is a wonderful well built boat with lots of help and spare parts available (see Catalina Direct and Catalinaowners.com for additional info and boats for sale) Here's hoping you find the boat you are looking for. Sorry that mother nature caused you to be boat shopping. I like the fact that my "swinger" can come off the water quickly on a trailer and be pulled out of harms way.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2006 : 19:28:28

As a former swing and current wing owner I recommend that you look for a wing just to simplify your life. If you cannot find one and need shallow draft then the 83 swinger is a great example of the model, lots of things had been refined by that point and you will love the boat. If depth is not an issue then you will be more comfortable in a fin keel. Fins lock in better when heeled and feel more "big boat" in their stability. regardless of the model you buy you will be amazed at what a fine boat design it really is. I sail a lake and feel very lucky to have a boat that handles what ever nature can throw at me and yet is affordable and manageable. You are welcome to contact me off line if you want an opinion on the price of the 83.
Oh, get a trailer!

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2006 : 19:28:54

There are a number of swingers available all over the place. Take a look at our swap meet section first, then look here

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/uk/listing/cache/pl_search_results.jsp?cit=true&ybw=&slim=quick&sm=3&is=&type=%28Sail%29&man=Catalina&luom=126&fromLength=25&toLength=25&fromYear=&toYear=&currencyid=100&fromPrice=&toPrice=&cint=100

Or enter your own search at www.yachtworld.com

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2006 : 19:30:10

PS - you didn't say how much - I'll sell you mine the day after we win the nationals for 9k

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2006 : 19:41:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Duane Wolff
 PS - you didn't say how much - I'll sell you mine the day after we win the nationals for 9k
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

and he means it!!

Edited by - on

Aldo
Deckhand

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USA
15 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2006 : 23:01:59

I've been looking for a C-25 swing keel for a quite while, and I have a few questions. What fraction of swing keels have trailers? How does the trailer affect the price of boat, that is, should I figure a boat with a trailer is worth $1000 more, or $2000 more, than a boat without a trailer? Will more boats be available in the spring?

When I find the right C-25, I think I'll know it, or do I have to just find one that's close and spend money on it until it's the way that that I want it? Until then I'll keep sailing my C-22.

Aldo

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2006 : 05:48:08

Good trailers hold their value. I would expect to pay at least $2000 more for an equivelent boat with a GOOD trailer. There are plenty of trailers that are shot. It costs $$$$$to get everything road worthy. The 25 is on the marginal size for towing and requires a trailer that is in tip top condition.
It is easier to find the boat and then have a trailer made. It is also more $$$ to go that way. When I found my 88, I had a new trailer made. It cost more than if I could have found a package deal, but I got a new trailer.

Tom.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2006 : 06:56:30

Aldo & Tradewind,

I think it is like Aldo said - when you find the right Cat 25, you will know it. You should have the feel good feeling. The cost, location and the condition it is in are all factors but these will all probably play in your head anyway toward that feel good feeling.

I did not get a survey but that is a recommendation that many of the veterans on the Board recommend if for nothing else to find out all the areas that you should eventually attend to. For starters, whether you get a survey or not, you obviously have to give it the once over to get to get a sense of it's general condition. Who you buy it from , how long they had it and your sense as to the care and attention they have given it may also be a guide to some extent as to it's wellbeing.

I would check the bilge area and the keel bolts to see if there is any evidence of leaks. If there is discoloring/evidence of past water concerns or corrosion around the keel bolts well that is one thing to factor in along with everything else. Check if the stanchions, cleats, etc are firmly mounted. Any leakage around the windows or evidence of rework. What is the smell in the boat. it is airy or does it have a mildew type odor. Any evidence of the stays having any broken or bent strands. How about the rudder pins or whatever they call them - Are they loose or rock solid. Is the boat being sold with the motor ? What condition is it in - has it been regularly serviced ? What is coming with the boat ? is the owner taking a lot of stuff with him or is he throwing in a lot of extras ? But back to the boat - that is the main concern - Any signs of blistering on the bottom ? Some will have a few quarter sized blisters but any real big ones ? Any signs of repair to the hull or any gouges that have not been attended to ?
There is sometimes a lot you can tell just from the overall tidiness of the boat. Has it been well kept. has the owner kept up with the teak finishing ? On the other hand - You may find a boat that has not been kept up to snuff but the basic boat looks fine - it may be such a great deal and as long as the main elements are intact, then try and get a feeling for what you would have to do to it to be happy with it. Do the cushions have to be replaced ? Some fixing up is mostly labor intensive and some enjoy doing that as part of a hobby, but what about the estimated expenses needed - if they seem to be within your future budget plans, then perhaps a real good deal on a fixer/upper may be the right one.

I think the technical tips section of this forum has an article or two on what to look for when considering buying a baot. take a look there as well as other postings since other s have raised same issues as you both have and there are plenty on this Forum that have a wealth of experience and have shared there wisdom. I am still in the learning stage and probably will always be there - there is always something new that one picks up.

Edited by - on

Tradewind
Admiral

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USA
531 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2006 : 14:55:03

Thank you everyone for the tips. The '83 SK I'm looking at seems to be in pretty good condition, I'm used to boats that have been around saltwater and this has been a fresh water boat. I've looked it over pretty well myself, I've been sailing for 30 years, I owned my '69 Cal for 26 years and rebuilt about every system on the boat more than once so I feel comfortable surveying the Cat 25 myself, except for the swing keel. There are loose and leaking stanchions and some other things to attend to, I've looked at the cable and winch but have no idea where the swivel pin is located or how to get to it. The boat is on a trailer in a backyard but the owner says he'd rather not part with the trailer, needs it for one of his other boats, said he'd help me launch and rig it. I would prefer a wing keel but haven't found one that wasn't alot more expensive than the swing. The asking $ on this '83 Cat 25 SK is $6000 but he said he'd take less, just make him an offer. The engine is an old Honda 7.7 I think, says it needs work but he'd take it to the shop and get it running.

I've been thru the swap forum and have been searching yachtworld since IVAN, I've settled on a lake boat until I can afford my coastal/offshore boat again, the Cat 25 or 250 looks like the perfect boat for the lake.

Again, I appreciate all the input, thanks.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2006 : 15:03:10

I would not want a swing without a trailer unless I could write checks every two years for keel maintenance. Most of the maintenance is easy and affordable unless you have a marina do it. Push back on the trailer if you have the ability to store it. That price should include a trailer in most areas of the country

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2006 : 16:52:56

Ditto on keeping the trailer if it is good shape. The swing is more maintenance and....if you do damage the trunk, you can quickly retrieve the boat.

My trailer saved my boat last year during the 2 hurricanes here in Jax. My marina lost about 30 boats total in both storms and mine would have been damaged if it was left in the water.

On a swing, the pin is external and cannot be seen from inside the boat. The one thing to check for sure is the pin hole in the keel. If it egged out, it is a pretty big job to repair. You can find all this info out on the site here in archived posts.
You can check for this on the trailer by seeing if the keel will move side to side when not resting on the bunkboard. This will cause the annoying keel clunk.

One thing I missed while doing my own survey is some dryrot in the bulkheads at the bottom . The chainplates leaked and where it sat at the bottom, it rotted.

If you find enough things wrong with the boat, perhaps he will let it go for a little more than asking with the trailer.

The engine would needs to be big factor. My boat's engine was marginal and i was never happy with it. $2000 later I have what I wanted from the beginning, a reliable engine.

Depending on your sailing area and plans, A new engine might not be a bad investment. If the old engine runs, It can be sold on e-bay to help recover the costs.

Good luck and take your time.

Tom.

Edited by - on

Tradewind
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
531 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2006 : 17:51:29

I'm not comfortable with the old engine, even with a rebuild, I'd probably replace it. And as for the swing keel, I'd rather have a wing, not comfortable with a swing either, depth is not a problem on the lake. I also may look at a fin keel, there are 3 in my area but seems they would be more difficult to launch from a trailer, I may be wrong on that.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2006 : 21:35:04

If depth is not a problem then buy a fin, you will be glad you did.

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2006 : 22:52:49

The fin is harder to get on and off the trailer. It will be a great sailor though. The easy way to trailer a fin is to use a lift. Not a big deal if you do not take her out often or have an exceptionally long ramp.

Tom.

Edited by - on

Aldo
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
15 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2006 : 12:35:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I would not want a swing without a trailer unless I could write checks every two years for keel maintenance. Most of the maintenance is easy and affordable unless you have a marina do it. Push back on the trailer if you have the ability to store it. That price should include a trailer in most areas of the country<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Frank: I don't exactly understand your reply, but I have some additional info. for you. I currently lift my C-22 in my wife's father's truck garage with 4, 1 ton winches and 2 slings, about every other year. We can lift it over 5 feet off the ground. I'm not sure that a C-25 will be able to be lifted that high, since the cabin is considerably higher on a C-25. I have checked the keel pivoting hardware on my C-22 several times, and it was fine. (I attribute that to zincs that I maintain very well). I know that a C-25's swing keel is 3 times heavier, but I think that I have the equipment to handle that too, so I wouldn't be writing checks for the keel maintenance or bottom painting either.

I do have the ability to store the trailer, so when you say, "Push back on the trailer if you have the ability to store it. That price should include a trailer in most areas of the country", what do you mean, the price of the boat should be about the same with or without the trailer?

Would you feel comfortable working under a C-25 supported by 4, 1 ton winches? That's an approximate safety factor of 2, for a C-25.

The thing that I have found with Winged keels compared to Swing keels, (on C-22s), is that Winged keels don't point as well, which has the effect of making them slower when cruising. Also, when they hit the same wave as a swing keel, they pitch up and down at a much higher frequency, because the ballast isn't as low as a swing keel, (sort of a short pendulum vs. a long pendulum). This also slows them down. Those are the reasons that we are looking for a Swing keel again instead of a Winged keel. I know that on the Chesapeake, after you get much above 25 feet, you probably need a winged keel.

Tradewind, sorry for interrupting your question.

Thanks everyone for your responses to me.

Aldo

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2006 : 15:57:20

Aldo, a person should do some swing preventive maintenance every two years or so, whether that amounts to a visual inspection, replacing a cable and ball or work on the pin, I would not want to go much over two years without putting my eye on it. If I had inspected the lift arrangement and was comfortable with it then I would have no problem with 4 1-ton winches.
I am a big believer in trailers if you live in an area where storing one is affordable and especially if you live in an area where marina facilities are limited or nonexistant, (like me). What I meant by push back is that the PO did not want to sell the trailer with the boat and if he can be persuaded to do it it would make Tradewind's life easier than if he has to try to find a trailer for sale. If he cannot realisticly store a trailer then he needs to deal with his boat in another way.
There are a few rules of conduct on this site, one is an understanding that we all want our boats to be worth as much as possible, so we try not to comment much on asking prices. The truth is people buy these boats for $3,000-$10,000 every day so where in that range any one boat should fall is a function of its condition the location and the "situation". But as a general rule $6,000 will often buy a boat with a trailer. If there are several fins around the area that are available and in the same ballpark pricewise then the swinger should probably come with the trailer at the same price as a fin without one, (all other things being equal).
I have to disagree with you on your coment regarding wings, the actual wing surfaces should dampen verticle motions much better than the swing and that is my experience both watching wings and now comparing the one I own with the swinger I used to own. (We very well may be talking about two different motions, I sail on a lake.)

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2006 : 19:51:27

I have a standard rig fin and my good friend Gary has a tall rig wing. On most days he flys his 110 jib and I my 135 and we can sail side by side for hours. The boats are very similar. Yes, the fin points higher, and yes the tall rig is a lot faster in ultra light air. Gary's boat is more tender in big air, I attribute that to the tall rig, not the wing, but its hard to say exactly. In big air my boat is faster without a doubt. His in light air. In 10 to 15 knots we are the same. Under power, we both have Honda 8 HP and are identical.

Don't worry about the stability of the wing. Its a good solid boat. It can take a grounding much better than the fin.

We believe we could get my fin on his wing trailer. The bunks are adjustable. The wing's draft is 2' 11" and the fin 4'. Thats only 13 inches. These trailers have tounge extensions for backing them extra deep down the launch ramp without getting your truck in.

Edited by - on

boatgt
Navigator

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117 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2006 : 22:58:38

Hey Tradewind,
I have a 78 swing keel in East TN I am looking to sell. $3000 no motor or trailer but at that price you should be able to find one. Email me if it sounds like something you may be interested in? I am keeping the motor and trailer for another C25 I am getting.
Thanks
Gene

Edited by - on

Tradewind
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
531 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2006 : 17:38:12

I decided on a new 250WK, dealer made me an offer at the Atlanta show I couldn't refuse.

Thanks for all the help and info on the 25.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2006 : 22:19:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tradewind
 I decided on a new 250WK, dealer made me an offer at the Atlanta show I couldn't refuse.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You won't be sorry! Congratulations! Now you have another forum to converse on.

Edited by - on

Aldo
Deckhand

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USA
15 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2006 : 12:44:50

Frank: Thanks for your reply to me. I'm sorry that I didn't reply sooner, but a friend of mine gave my son a Hobie 16 this past weekend, and that has been consuming my time.

Storing a trailer would be no problem for me. We are 100 miles from where we sail our boat, so bringing our boat home has always been preferable to driving hours to a marina just to work or check on our boat.

I'm sorry about the rule of conduct that I broke. What you said makes sense to me, and thanks for the numbers and explanation that you gave.

We always tried to take good care of our C-22, treating it as though we wanted it to last forever. It has lasted 25 years and still looks fine, and I certainly enjoy it now as much as ever. What we are looking for is a C-25 that was treated the same way.

Thanks again, Aldo

Edited by - on

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