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Should I have a second set of reef holes put in my

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/12/2006 : 10:53:16

Hi All, My sail guy called yesterday and asked if I wanted a second set of reef holes put in my main sail. I took my sails to him after I bought the boat in November just to get them washed and inspected. This is a standard rig, so do you think it is worth it? Thanks.

Dennis
No Boat
S.E. Michigan

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2006 : 11:37:37

Where will you be sailing the boat, Dennis? Lake Erie, Lake Michigan, Lake St. Clair, a smaller inland lake? Did he quote you a price? What's the condition of your mainsail?

I don't think you should intentionally sail a C25 in conditions that require a second reef, but, if you sail on a big body of water, you'll probably get caught out unintentionally in conditions that require it, so you should have a second reef. If you only sail on a small inland lake, you can just run for shelter if the weather gets too rough, so, you can get by with only a single set of reef points.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2006 : 14:41:28

Dennis,

If it were my mainsail, I wouldn't get the second set of reef points added to an existing sail.

First, like Steve said, I wouldn't sail away from the dock in conditions that would warrant a second reef and of the times I got caught out in conditions that had me choosing between a 2nd reef or lashing the main to the boom, this somewhat cautious singlehanded sailor chose to douse the main and head back to port.

Another thing to consider is your roller furling. I have a 135 roller furled headsail that becomes more useless the more that it is reefed. It is virtually impossible for me to reef my headsail to a point were it would be effectively matched to a main with a 2nd reef. Additionally, I've found that my C25 (fin) sails suprising well under genoa alone (almost too good

).

Because of the roller reefing limitations and the C25's ability to sail well under genoa alone, a fair amount of time I'll simply sail under headsail alone and not even bother with the main. I've left the slip on a lot of iffy days and just released the genoa and left the main under cover. With this technique and my bimini, I'll even go sailing in the rain because instead of hanking on a headsail and uncovering the main, I just sit in the relative dryness of the cockpit and release the furling line.

So Dennis, my advice to you is...sail the upcoming season and see how it goes. If after you put some miles under your keel, you decide you want a second reef installed, then do so after next season.

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2006 : 17:39:18

Hi Don and Steve, my sail was made 7/16/04 so it is fairly new. He did not quote a price so I don't know that but he is only charging me $50.00 for an engine cover in a non-standard color. I will be sailing Lake Huron, St. Clair, and Erie. I plan on doing some long distance cruising. I think I will go this year without it and see if it is necassary. Thanks.

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2006 : 18:05:17

Dennis,

It seems to me that you mentioned cruising with your wife and kids a while back. I'd opt for the second reef if that's so. You may get into something that could scare the heck out of them and you'll loose them as sailing partners. I'm speaking from experience. I now have my boat equipped to weather most conditions I may have to sail in on lake Superior.

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2006 : 19:12:31

Hi Al, you are right, this is a new experience for them and I have their total support now and I would not want to loose it. Price depending, I will have them do it. Thanks.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2006 : 19:36:22

My main sail is rigged for a deep 2nd reef and I have a 60% storm jib. Of course I've sailed 50 to 60 miles offshore and up to the very windy Channel Islands on a 3 week single handed adventure. I did not need the 2nd reef and never have used the 60. However, it felt good to have both onboard on my voyage...I did have very big winds one day and I dropped my jib and sailed under single reefed main alone. When I got in the "lee" of the island (if you can call 30 knots plus of wind a lee) I fired up the Honda and motorsailed in. If I'd been caught out on that day I probably would have needed the 60 and 2nd reef. Lucky for me it was a weather shore that day.

If you have a tall rig I think the 2nd reef is essential.

Where you live, you could get caught in a big thunderstorm. I'd get the reef sewn in.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2006 : 19:37:18

By the way, my new system of double reef lines with hooks on them allows the flattening reef, 1st reef, and 2nd reef all to be worked from the cockpit with only 2 lines.

Speaking of the flattening reef, I use that ALL THE TIME and I'd get that put in if you don't have it. Very handy when the boat is heeling just a little too much for wife and crew.

Edited by - JimB517 on 01/12/2006 19:38:17

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2006 : 21:17:51

Hi Jim, do you have pictures of your double reef line system? Yep, I may never need it, but I am calling them tomorrow and having it done. Cheers.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2006 : 21:54:25

Dennis,

Do you have another headsail other than the 150 on the furler?

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2006 : 22:29:24

Personally I agree with Steve Milby and Don Lucier. My sailmaker and I talked over what I wanted a few years back when we got our new main. I have a single reef in the main set at about 125% of the normal height. There are a number of reasons why - mainly, I believe I have a set of sail combinations that maximize the weather I sail in often and help me when racing. The main points from the conversation were these. First - If you need a second reef, you shouldn't have left the dock in the first place and putting a second set of reef points in withoug building into the design of the sail can weaken the sail at those points

dw

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2006 : 22:32:05

I have the original 60% storm jib which looks like it has been in the bag since 1977. I am going to fly it between the main and jib (very temporarily) so I can get a picture of a C25 cutter!!! LOL.

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2006 : 00:39:06

I have a 2nd reef and have needed to use it a couple of times. for around $40 to $60, (plus line and parts), the peace of mind would be worth it to me. As the others have pointed out, the answers to a lot of questions about how to best rig these boats depend on where and how you sail.

-- Leon Sisson

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sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2006 : 01:07:34

I also have 2 reef points in the main. The second is for me when sailing alone and the first is for the family and to head for the harbor. It was an easy decision to have both put in because of the price. The C25 sails really good with a first or second reef but also be ready to motorsail and look into the eyes of your crew and don't wait to reef. I have waited too long and the numbers blew off the sail, my daughter still remembers that sail.

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2006 : 07:43:10

Along with Jim's point, If you are questioning whether to reef, do it, it is probably too late already. On top of that, don't be afraid to leave the dock with a reef in, you can always shake it out.

dw

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2006 : 11:12:39

I started the first race of the 05 Nationals with a reef in... and shook it out.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2006 : 11:23:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by djn
 I have the original 60% storm jib which looks like it has been in the bag since 1977...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My original 110 on my old boat almost looked like new because it was rarely used.

Does your storm jib have luff tape that will fit your furler or is it a hank on?

Edited by - dlucier on 01/13/2006 11:27:56

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2006 : 12:36:08

That is a good question Don. I'll have to look. I pulled it out, looked at it, then put it back in the bag. Cheers.

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2006 : 13:51:04

Dennis, at the risk of sounding like I'm flogging a dead horse, I sail solo on a tall c-25. My main is single reefed. In 14 years I've never reefed. I was always able to control a situation by furling the jib and using the main only. That's just the kind of conditions that I choose to expost myself to, older/wiser, I guess. I pick my sailing days carefully, with the knowledge that at any time stuff can happen.

If I were to venture into the Atlantic with this boat I'd carry a triple reefed main, a furling jib, a staysail and a storm jib and an E-pirb, an abandon ship craft, and Rosary Beads blessed by the Pope all in addition to the what is already on the boat.

So maybe I'm a tad cautious, but hey, I've been sailing since 1938.

and hope to continue till I can't get it up any longer, the sail that is

Val on the hard DAGNABIT # 3936

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2006 : 14:07:06

I'm kind of like Val, I sail solo on an inland lake and have never reefed. If it really gets windy, like it can at times, I just roll up the genoa and use the main only.

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2006 : 17:32:48

Hi All, the second reefs with be in the sail by next Wednesday. My conclusion from reading all the post was that I most likely will not use it, but for $70.00, I'll have it if needed. Knowing myself, I will shy away from the weather, but knowing my luck, the son of a bitch will track me down when my back it turned. Thanks all.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2006 : 19:41:47

Here's my double line reefing system. You probably have a 2 lines, one in front of the boom, and one in the back. These lines are tied to a ring terminal on the boom, run up through the reefing cringle, back down to the boom, down the mast, through deck organizers/turning blocks, to clutches before the cabing top winches.

Just untie at the boom and tie on a deep stainless steel U hook on each line. My hook is about 4 inches deep and U shaped with an eye on one end of the U. Hook in the cringle.

When I start sailing, I have the hooks on the flattening reef. If I have to pull this in, fine. If I have to go to the first reef I just slack the clutches and move the hooks up to the next cringle, then pull them in. Ditto for the 2nd reef. Yes, you have to leave the cockpit to move the hook at the mast, and yes, the hook on the leech of the main can flog a bit when you are moving it. But with 2 lines I can control 3 reefs.

On the forward flattening reef cringle, this also can be used as a cunningham.

Most of the Fleet 7 sailors have seen this system and have converted to it because its better. Not needed if you don't have a flattening reef, cunningham or 2nd reef.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2006 : 18:18:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tinob
 Dennis, at the risk of sounding like I'm flogging a dead horse, I sail solo on a tall c-25. My main is single reefed. In 14 years I've never reefed.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT # 3936<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by At Ease
 I'm kind of like Val, I sail solo on an inland lake and have never reefed. If it really gets windy, like it can at times, I just roll up the genoa and use the main only.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This singlehanded sailor also has never reefed the main.

Although my boat is set up with everything necessary to single and double reef from the cockpit, I've only reefed in practice. My habit of dropping the main when things get dicey and sail under the roller furling headsail only has saved my butt, and my main, on two occasions when winds went from nothing to 50mph in the blink of an eye.

A lot has to do with your sailing venue...In my end of shallow Lake Erie, conditions that would warrant a 2nd reef usually produce sea states that make the wind the least of my worries.

Edited by - on

ct95949
Captain

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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2006 : 20:12:58

Concerning the advise about not intentionally sailing a C25 in conditions that would require a 2nd reef, is it still a bad idea even if the boat is well under control? Several times I've left the slip with the 2nd reef in then decide on the river weather or not to shake it out.When I've sailed with it in the boat was moving at 4-5 knts.,moderate heel,110 jib mostly furled,single handed and comfortable.Waves are sometimes a problem if the wind is blowing against the current.When I told Gary Swenson where I sailed he added 2nd reef points-I figured if they're in why not use them?

If didn't go out in big wind I'd miss a lot of days sailing and I like the advise I've found in this forum about honing your sailing skills in heavy weather.I don't want to be doing something dangerous but doesn't anyone who sails in a predominatly high wind area(S.F Bay)go out knowing they will be setting the 2nd reef?

Thanks,Craig

Edited by - ct95949 on 01/16/2006 00:02:17

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2006 : 21:27:56

"...not leave the dock... in conditions that would require a 2nd reef"

The philosophy is that if you are already are reduced to your minumum sail configuration and conditions deteriorate further, you are out of (easy) options for further reducing sail.

Based on your description of being under easy control with the second reef, I think you are being safe and prudent. Leaving the dock under conditions when you are at the limits of control with a 110 and a second reef in the main... that's a different story.

Overall, the criteria for what is safe is very situational. Your sailing venue, condition of the boat,skill of the crew, and of course the weather forecast all play a role in defining when you should stay at the dock.

Edited by - on

wmuchmore
1st Mate

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USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2006 : 21:36:55

The tall rig mast is two feet higher and the boom is one foot lower than on the standard rig. That's three feet more than the standard main. So the way I figure it, when my tall rig main is at the first reef, it's about equal to an unreefed standard main, and when my main is double reefed it's about the same as a standard main with a single reef.

I sail in a windy area, Great South Bay of Long Island, and use the second reef quite often with the 135 genoa furled to working jib size. For me this works well.

Mike Muchmore
2038 Tall Rig Fin "Calamity Jane"

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