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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Backstay Mod

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Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/31/2006 : 23:51:12

Well, I thought about it for three years and finally decided to find out: Can you attach the backstay bridle to the outside rail of the stern seats and not live to regret it. I'll be the guinea pig and let everyone know if the seats can handle it...!

I used the original unmodified bridle stays and attached them to the seats with shackles:

I added some sleeves and spacers just to keep everything centered and "shipshape". All parts are rated at least as high as the 5/32" backstay (3,000 lb.). (I still need to safety wire the pins)

I ran the bridles up to the triangle, then cut the excess backstay and used a NavTek swageless stud fitting to attach to the backstay and screw back into the original turnbuckle:

I checked the backstay tension with my Loos gauge before disassembly, and, after nearly three years of sailing, backstay tension was still right at 32, (recommended starting point tension per the manual). After the mod, I tightened it again to 32, and will leave the gauge in place while sailing to see what kind of loads the backstay sees (which I think (hope?) are low).

Before the mod, distance from the wheel to the bridle wire was 14.5", After the mod, close to 30". Yes! Not only is getting past the wheel to the helm not an issue anymore, but I tie the dingy up to the ladder (in the down position) so now getting to the dingy is like falling off a log!

Al Maniccia
SeaWolf C250WK #698
Marina Del Rey, CA

Edited by - on

AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2006 : 01:06:35

Al, why didn't you attach the bridle to the inboard rails of the stern seats? Outside looks like it would interfere with sitting on the seats, i.e. rubbing against your head.
What are those white things hanging on your swim step ladder?

Edited by - on

Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2006 : 11:49:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...why didn't you attach the bridle to the inboard rails of the stern seats?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The goal was to eliminate interference from the bridle as much as possible, while retaining adequate support for the backstay. Moving attachment points to the inboard rails would have provided a little more room getting around the wheel, but would still have been right in the way when going to/from the dingy with armfuls of gear.

Attached to the outboard rail, the bridle is nowhere near your head. Remember, the bridle is not pointing straight up, but pointed forward toward the top of the mast.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What are those white things hanging on your swim step ladder?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's the Lifesling2 in its bag.

Edited by - on

welshoff
Captain

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USA
253 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2006 : 12:56:42

Al,
I like the mod you put together - it should be very functional. The outboard location was what I was thinking about as well. The shackles are a very good solution. I kept thinking I needed to weld an attachement point to the railing. I think there is plenty of strength in the stern railing to take the load of the backstay. I think based on the design of the rigging, the swept back spreaders take some of the load from the backstay.

Where did you get all the little sleeves and spacers? What size shackels and Navtek fittings did you use? Can you post a supply list for the parts used? I am beyond ready to make this change. Very well done!

Based on your pictures, I don't think there is much interference with seating. I find myself having to get behind the wheel far more often than trying to get into the stern seats. The access to the dingy would be much improved as well. The kids use the seats anyway and they can adapt a lot easier than I can.

Edited by - on

Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2006 : 13:39:32

Wil, I'll put a list together and post it. I made the sleeves and spacers from SS tubing and pipe.

There really is no interference getting into/out of the seats, nor when you're sitting in them. I'll try to post a picture from the side that shows that. Before I did anything I took some rope (same length as the bridle) and tied one end to the outside seat rail and ran it up and tied it off to the backstay. Then I walked around the helm and back and forth to the ladder and got in and out of the seat, sat in it with my beer, etc., and said to myself, "This is the way this boat is supposed to be. (But maybe that was the beer talking...!)

Edited by - on

AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2006 : 16:55:30

Al, where did you get the safety netting I see from your port lifeline?
I didn't realize you have a wheel helm, the reason for shifting the backstay.

Edited by - AADIVER on 02/01/2006 21:04:35

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2006 : 23:33:19

Just curious, how long is one line of the split bridle? I was just wondering if the length that orginally went to the transom was different than mine that came attached to the pulpits.
There is a item in the WM catalog called a "pulpit anchor" on page 1024 that might work to attach the backstay to the pulpits. I have used these for sheet blocks, tack blocks and to hold the rear of the pulpit up. Like your mod and welcome to the the removed from backstay necktie party group.

Edited by - on

Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2006 : 00:19:45

Frank,

I got the netting from http://www.usnetting.com/HTML/sports-netting.html. They have all kinds of netting, you'll have to browse around and see what works best for you. I bought from them because I wanted a lighter gauge and black color, and couldn't find it from marine sources.

Frog,

I'll measure the bridle this weekend.

I considered the Johnson pulpit anchors but Johnson's warning: "... not for high load applications" steered me away from them. They're designed for lifelines and I couldn't find a load rating for them (not that the seats have a load rating!) and I found the perfect shackle in the Wichard #1263 for only a couple $$ more. But yes, it would probably work just fine, I just preferred the shackle.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2006 : 07:58:21

Great looking mod. Do you use a bimini?

Sounds like we need info on the kind of backstay tensions to expect in various conditions.
I've read where racers tighten/slacken the backstay to affect sail shape (shouldn't we all do that and when?)

Your mod solves one problem, (getting around the backstay when a wheel is in the way.) I'm not sure how it would affect the bimini though! no big deal to patch up the existing hole for the stay, but the kind of adjuster that pulls the lower wires (port & stbd) together to increase backstay tension would seem to be an issue when a bimini is in place (But I guess racers would not use a bimini).
Could that issue be solved by using an adjuster like the ones on page 1021 of the 05 WM catalog above the triangle plate?

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2006 : 08:46:20

I have not found that the backstay adjuster was a necessity on the 250 when racing, since when winds get to that velocity you had better be thinking and probably putting the first reef in the mainsail. This boat just does not sail well when exceeding 20 degrees of heel. As a matter of interest I've found that speed decreases along with control as the heel angle exceeds this number and at 32 degrees you lose all rudder control, even with the big rudder. I am talking about the WK model here since I have NO experience with the WB model.
If you insist on the adjuster, Derek Crawford has the answer to a simple adjuster that you can make that would allow you to mount it under the bimini were the bridle is farther apart. When I race I fold the front part of the bimini back against the bridle to allow for a better view of the sails, telltales and the windex. When cruising I set them and forget them unless something changes.

Edited by - on

Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2006 : 23:58:08

"Can you post a supply list for the parts used?"

2 ea Shackle, Wichard #1263
1 ea Turnbuckle Stud, Swageless, Navtec Norseman #N030-0510

Optional:

The factory triangle looked like it was put together with odds and ends...

...so I replaced it with:

1 ea Triangle, Schaefer #84-96

I fabbed the sleeves and spacers for the shackle, but they're not necessary. You could do the same thing with some SS washers from Home Depot.

Also, this mod is probably best for the set it and forget it turnbuckle crowd, as the turnbuckle ends up too high to reach easily. If you did want on the fly adjustability, some type of split backstay adjuster that uses a wire block instead of the triangle would work.

Edited by - on

Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2006 : 23:54:12

Frog, the length of one wire of the split backstay is 88" (measured in the dark...)

Paul, I don't have a bimini, but if you tell me what dimensions you're concerned about, let me know and I'll measure them.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2006 : 09:46:09

Nice job on your selection of components Al, good luck with the project. I am not familiar with the dark reaches of a 250, can you get backing plates under the pulpit bases? (And I gree the swept spreaders take a lot of the load.)

Edited by - on

Grego5
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2006 : 21:18:33

Al.. Can you give us any feedback on the mod? How has the mod worked so far? Any issues or gotcha's? What type of wind have you been out in?

Edited by - on

Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2006 : 21:55:48

I haven't had it out yet, just been too busy. I'll report on it when I do get out, though.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2006 : 07:11:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 
I've read where racers tighten/slacken the backstay to affect sail shape (shouldn't we all do that and when?)

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, racers will desire a loose rig for power in light wind that can be hardened by a backstay tensioner to reduce power in a breese. Unfortunately that is not a feature of a B&R rig or even a modified form of it with a backstay such as the 250. Bergstrom and Ridder who designed the swept spreader rig outlined that power tuning should be done via the forestay and that if a boat were to be equipped with a tensioner, it should be on the forestay...not the backstay.

The 250 rig is designed to be tuned firm as if it had a backstay tensioner hardened for heavier air. This will leave light air performance compromised though the rig can be manually detuned (loosened) for light air races.

The forestay turnbuckle can be eased to the point that the backstay is just off the roach of the main to gain power in both the headsail and main. Be aware that a rig tuned for power will be much more suceptable to increased heeling. If I were racing in winds under 8 kts... I'd invest in the 10 minutes needed to loosen the forestay... but remember to avoid any temptation not to pin the turnbuckle. In winds 8-13, I might want the rig tuned moderate and 14 and above, I'd want it tuned firm.

btw, Al... great modification

Edited by - on

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
772 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2006 : 21:56:30

hey Al,
how is that backstay holding up ?
I like it , it looks like it makes space needed to get
around wheel . Do the seats flex in heavey wind ?

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Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2006 : 00:13:41

I still haven't had the boat out, but we're sailing to Catalina this weekend, so I'll get about 70 miles on it. I'll report on it the first of next week. Hopefully the thunderstorms are over, lightning started two fires on Catalina a few days ago....

Edited by - on

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
772 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2006 : 21:11:33

Thanks Al
I would guess a problem might be the chairs would
flex and make hair line cracks , where they bolt to the boat.
if that happens maybe bigger backing plates is all you need .

But thats a great mod , big improvement of space .
maybe you can run a back up line you keep lose and pulled to the side , and if your ever caught
in heavy weather tighten it up .

Have a good trip .

Edited by - on

Dkn420
Captain

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USA
298 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2006 : 22:23:38

Al: How did your "backstay" modification turn out after your sail to Catalina? Dan#727

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Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2006 : 23:11:56

So far, so good, but I still have to test it downwind. With 15 kt. winds across the beam, I put my Loos gauge on one of the bridle lines, and it read "22" which equals about 310 pounds or about 10% of the breaking strength of the wire (the gauge is on the boat so I can't double check those numbers). It really never varied out of the 21 or 22 range, but I expect it to go higher running downwind, but not much. I also want to simulate an accidental jibe (somewhat), which I assume would put the most strain on it.

I might be going to Catalina again next weekend, so I'll put it to a real test.

But it passed the ergonomics test with flying colors. It's so nice to walk the dog to the dingy in the dark and not walk into that wire! Or not having to squeeze between the wire and the wheel and having my PFD catch on it, or knock my hat off.

Sorry I've been late posting this, work and home have just been crazy this year....

Edited by - on

Dkn420
Captain

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USA
298 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2006 : 00:28:22

Al: Thanks for the update, I'll be looking forward to your next report...great idea...thanks for the contribution...Dan #727

Edited by - Dkn420 on 08/14/2006 00:39:33

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2006 : 08:08:37

Al, everytime I see your mod, I like it more! And your recent review only confirmed the value. My issue is that I have a bimini on JD.

<center>So here's an idea, what do you think?

</center>

The 'Tube' could be a simple stainless 1" tube or, if it had to be bigger, it could be an Aluminium or Stainless I Beam - not so easy to come by.
I did think of using a long builders spirit level but could not find any longer than 72".

I'll talk to one of my clients that is in the metal engineering business to see what he could do.

Paul.

Edited by - on

Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2006 : 14:45:34

First off, are you sure you need a spreader bar to clear the bimini? You can find out by:

1) Measure the length of one of the bridle wires (which you're going to reuse unmodified).

2) Measure the length from the old bridle wire attachment point on the stern, to the new point on the outside of the seat. Don't measure vertically, but on the same vertical plane as the backstay. This will tell you where on your backstay your triangle will be relocated to.

3) Tie a piece of line (the same length as one bridle wire) to the new attachment point on the outside of the seat, and the other end on the backstay where the triangle will be relocated to. (you'll need a 6' step ladder, set atwartships on the (fiberglass) cockpit seats).

4) Try putting up the bimini. If it clears, fine. If it's close, you can get more clearance by raising the triangle further (but that necessitates new, longer, bridle wires.)

Here's my thought process when I did it on my boat:

Plan A) Move the bridle wire to the outside of the stern seats. (This is what I eventually ended up doing). The disadvantage with this is the strain on the seat rail is not perpendicular to the attachment points of the seat. (BTY, the attachment points all have backing plates. They're not going anywhere.) There is some unmeasured lateral force that tries to push the seats inboard. If you push the seat sideways, you can see it flex a little. So...

Plan B) Use a spreader bar to eliminate the lateral load. But this involved knowing what compressive force would be, strength of the SS tube in that configuration, plus a smooth curve over the ends of the tube so the wire wouldn't kink, etc. - things were getting complicated, so...

Plan C) Put the triangle at the top of the mast. That would lessen the lateral force, but would necessitate two backstays, more windage and weight aloft, plus climbing up the mast, which I try to minimize. so...

I went back to Plan A...!

I assume you can't slot your bimini for the wires because of the bimini frame.

If you do end up making a spreader bar, you can find lots of materials here http://www.mcmaster.com/

Hope this helps....!

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2006 : 18:11:31

Al, thanks for the input. (forgive my extensive grilling here

)

The C250WB 2005 model does not have a split backstay, the lower end of the stay is attached to a turnbuckle which is secured to a strap on the topside of the cockpit floor by the portside walkthough.

So right now the backstay goes through a hole in the bimini (has a fancy zipper around it but that is useless), if you want to lower the bimini you have to release the backstay. So the bimini is the last thing down after lowering the mast.

Your point about kinks in the bridles as they pass the 'beam' is very relavant, it would need fittings on the ends above and below the beam to avoid kinking the wire.

As we trail every trip, there is also the prep and deprep to consider. It would most likely need some kind of easy to part connector above (or at the top of) the triangle, and the seat connectors too. The beam could be wrapped up in the bimini when it is prepped for trailering but the lower shroud extensions (beam to seats) would have to be disconnected as they would not reach to the beam if it were with the stowed bimini. If the beam end fitting allowed it, they could be simply be left connnected to the beam, disconnected from the seats and then laid along the stowed beam (perhaps velcro keepers).

I think an added benefit of the beam would be to really reduce the sideways (inboard) strain on the seat fittings.

I'm starting to think that this is very doable and not too expensive.

Did you need any special tools to do the work on the stay/bridles?

I'm guessing that your method of connecting the bridles to the seat rails is just a loose fitting and they cannot move forward as that would require they move down the tube.

What does the backside of the triangle look like?

Ok, end of todays questions ... thanks in advance.

Paul

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