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Attn: Chesapeake Bay Sailors, sail size ?

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Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/04/2006 : 11:41:31

As you may have read in my previous posts, I'm going to be buying a new head sail. I wanted to get the opinion from some fellow Chesapeake Bay sailors on which size of genoa I should buy, a 135% or 150%. I'm hearing that 135% might be a better option since it will be my only sail and it will be better for when the wind picks up. But then I hear the summers on the bay can be calm. Since I'm new to this, can you all please give me some input on what you use and recommend?

Thanks,

Justin
Previous Owner of Sapphire Breeze - 1982 Catalina 25 SK/SR
My sail blog site: https://reveriesailing.com/

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2006 : 12:55:08

Couple questions for better guidance.

Are you new to sailing or is this just your first C25?
Is that roller furling on your boat?
(I Can see what looks like a RF drum in the photo)

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2006 : 13:04:47

I'm new to sailing and yes that is a roller furling on my boat.
Thanks,

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2006 : 18:17:20

Justin, I used to have a 150 hank-on, and last year installed a furler with a 135. I like the 135 better. Yes, winds in the summer on the bay can be pretty light, but when it's August and the temperature is approaching 100 and the boat is moving at less than 3 knots, it's time to fire up the engine.

When the wind is light and you're determined to sail, you'd be better off with a drifter or other asymmetrical spinnaker than the extra 15% in the genoa. When the wind kicks up and you need to furl, the 135 will be a better sail partially furled than the 150.

But that's just my experience.

By the way, by all means have your sailmaker install a foam luff on your headsail. That will give the sail better shape when it's furled. My sail was made by Scott Sails, in Annapolis and Urbanna, and it's very well made and reasonably priced. They're on the internet.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 02/04/2006 18:26:55

Esteban
Navigator

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139 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2006 : 21:43:21

Justin,

Brooke is dead on. I've sailed the Chesapeake for two years now and I too would recommend a 135. In strong winds you can still furl it to roughly 115 or so and still keep a pretty good shape. As for the August timeframe wityh little to no winds I would recommend an asymetrical.

My first year I used hank on sails and had a 150 and a 110. That worked out well. My second year I installed a furler with a 135 and used an anymetrical. The furler by itself was a drastic improvement but moving to a 135 really worked out well in the wide range of winds you will find on the bay. Go with the 135 - it will give you a good range. Better to have to little a sail in no winds than too much sail in strong winds.

Edited by - on

frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2006 : 15:49:59

I have a 135 on my 2003 and like it a lot on the middle Chesapeake area. Most of the time it's just right but like the 3 bears sometimes it's too big and some times it's too small.

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2006 : 22:07:13

Thanks for the input everyone. I think I will go with a 135% after what I've read. Now, I just need to decide where to buy from. I was about to go with Catalina Direct, can't go wrong there, but then I was reading some other threads and some people said North Sails are high quality as well. I then found out that Cruising Direct is North Sails and their 135% is only $650 compared to $875 from Catalina Direct. Any other opinions on North Sails/Cruising Direct?

Thanks,

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2006 : 07:42:33

Justin, I bought my main two years ago from Doyle via catalinaowners.com. I wanted them to do some special things -- it's actually a Capri 25 sail, because I shortened the luff to accomodate the bimini (there's a posting from me about TR biminis in the archives) -- and they produced a very nice sail at a great price. The secret about most bargain sails these days is that they're being made in China and shipped here to have US sailmaker labels slapped on them. So whether you buy a North or Doyle or Catalina or whatever, it's probably coming across the Pacific.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 02/06/2006 15:50:53

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2006 : 14:11:57

Hey Justin, give me a little info on your Furler Sail you just ripped. As stated before, I have a garage full of sails, If one is close to what you need you can use it, then send it back once you have the New Sail. The furler Sail I have for the Capri 25 has a #6 Luff tape. It's Foot is about 15' luff is around 29'. I have seen the new site, and if you have your sail still out at your apartment go and measure it. I have 15 to 17 sails for the Capri 25, and the one I will let you use I will never put back on the boat. It's not because the sail is in bad shape, Its just not the 150% racing sail I wanted for the boat. Now if some thing happens to the sail, like your dog eats the corner off, or it gets some stain on it, don't worry about it. Just mail it back to me when you are done with it. I am just trying to give you a replacement while you get your new sail. As far as a 150% or a 135% my best advice is to find a local sail loft you can trust. Spend the extra money and have them make the sail, They will be more than happy to go out with you and make sure the cut is correct, and make any adjustments to the sail if needed. They will be able to tell you the correct placement of the Genoa cars, and how to sheet the sail to keep it flat (higher winds) When to Furl the sail, and the best sheeting angles to keep the draft in the foil shape of the sail. Just my 2 cents.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2006 : 14:45:53

And excellent advise, years ago John Kolius made me a sail when he was in Seabrook Texas, he brought it to Wichita and tuned my boat to check out the sail. It was the fastest the boat would ever go and great fun to have a sailmaker on board.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2006 : 15:07:25

We are nice enough to have Rodger Kerr, Kerr Sails here local in Tulsa, He is more than happy to go out with you and make sure that the Rig is set up correctly, and that the draft in the sails are in the right place. He also owns a Merit 25, and has won our Keelboat Handicaped Fleet in 2005. He gives us a good break on the pricing of the sails, does allot of custom work for all of the members, and realy is a great member at the club. Most of his sails go out to the East coast on larger boats, but he also takes care of the San Juan 21 Class. I learned more from him in an hour out on the boat, then a year looking at things myself.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
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Response Posted - 02/06/2006 : 22:49:07

Roger Kerr does a lot for people here at Cheney as well, he is a great guy.

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2006 : 23:03:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Justin4192
 Thanks for the input everyone. I think I will go with a 135% after what I've read. Now, I just need to decide where to buy from. I was about to go with Catalina Direct, can't go wrong there, but then I was reading some other threads and some people said North Sails are high quality as well. I then found out that Cruising Direct is North Sails and their 135% is only $650 compared to $875 from Catalina Direct. Any other opinions on North Sails/Cruising Direct?

Thanks,
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A million of them. Quantum, sobstad, AirForce, Doyle, Ullman, UK, and a ton of others along the way. Email Cruising Direct and ask them what the difference is between their sail and the North Sail. If there is one, they will explain everything for you. North Is generally the racing arm, that is why they develped cruising direct. I can guess as to the reasons North might be cheaper, but would be interested to hear what they say.

dw

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2006 : 09:21:02

Hi Chris, thanks for offering to let me borrow one of your sails, but I think I will be buying one soon enough that I won’t be missing out on sailing. The main thing is I probably need one by the end of this month when I need to sail my boat to its new slip across the bay. If I buy from Cruising Direct, I should have it in a week or so.

I’ve been reading a lot of threads comparing local lofts to the discount Internet/mail order lofts and I think I will probably save my money and go with an Internet loft. When you pay extra for the local loft, a lot of people have said the main difference is that having them come out to your boat, measure, and possibly take you out for a test sail is built into the price. Since our boats are so popular, the measurements should be pretty standard I would think. I also read that when buying a headsail it doesn’t have to be as custom tailored as a main, so you are safer buying a headsail online than a main.

I just called Cruising Direct this morning and asked some questions. I asked how they sell their North Sails at a discount. Dan gave the following reasons:
-They sell in large volumes
-They do have some design restrictions, such as number of reefing points and shapes of corner reinforcements.
-When you buy from a North loft, you’re paying to have them come and measure your boat. So, you’re paying for a bit more personal service. With CD you do it yourself, or with our popular C-25s, they already know.

I asked how they compare to their North Sails:
-They use the same hardware and same fabrics
-Dan said that with our Catalina 25 sails, they are almost exactly the same as what you would get from a North loft. It’s a high quality coastal cruising basic sail. If you want a racing or exotic material, North lofts specializes in those.
I asked about stitching and they use double and triple stitching depending on the location of the sail.

I’m going to call up some more lofts today, but I’m leaning towards Cruising Direct. I’m just going to be a weekend cruiser/day sailor, so I think these will suit me fine.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2006 : 11:00:05

I'm not sure of the vintage of my North Sails roller furling headsail, but it is holding up quite well and I'm very pleased with it.

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2006 : 11:09:36

I'm calling more lofts. I got a quote from Mack Sails, $1076. It didn't sound to be any better than Catalina Direct's. I got the following quote from Scott Sails:
The 135% genoa that I have quoted for you will be built from a 6.0 oz dacron to a cross cut panel layout. The sail will include UV leech and foot covers, foam luff pad, radial patches, leech line, telltales and a bag. The price of the sail is $829.00.
Are radial patches that much better than the square patches seen on cheaper sails?
FX Sails have the 135% for $750. It doesn't seem to be much different than Cruising Direct's for $650.
I just called my local Doyle loft and will update this when I get the quote.
So, those are some of my options I'm looking at.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2006 : 15:17:11

I went through this process a couple of years ago, lowest price was from National Sails in Ft Myers, FL, 800-611-3823, www.nationalsail.com

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2006 : 15:40:17

Bert, I was looking at them too, but was thinking that Cruising Direct, being North Sails might have a better reputation. They are also the same price. How are your's holding up and are you happy with the quality? I'm assuming so, since you're recommending them.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2006 : 17:26:32

Justin, I was looking at the Cruising Direct site, and they didn't mention a foam luff for their headsails. Make sure you're comparing apples with apples -- Jim Scott quoted you a price with the foam luff, which gives the sail a better shape when you reef it.

Brooke

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2006 : 21:12:03

It isn't always about price, a mainsail is a huge point of pride for most people. If I see a North Logo, (a real North Logo Justin) it says a lot about the boat and the sailor. If I see a Hood I genuflect as I go by. Ulmer AKA UK, Doyle, Quantum, Ullman, all say a lot about the boat and the sailor. When I read ads for boats and the sails are some local loft I assume they are less than the best, (although it ain't necessarily so).
Justin, I do not believe you are getting the whole story from Cruising Direct, ask to speak to the guy who will be stitching your sail and see what they say. Call a real North loft and ask them why you should buy from them instead of Cruising Direct, I did, it was an eye opener. My new headsail from Ullman is signed by Gary Swensen, I know who made it.
Had enough advise yet?

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2006 : 08:01:25

Hi Brooke, you’re correct, the Cruising Direct sail doesn’t have a foam or rope luff. They were saying it isn’t necessary on the 135%. I also read a thread on here that someone mentioned I think it was Gary Swensen that told the poster that on a 135% a foam luff is not necessary. So some lofts were recommending it, others were not. I know I should compare equal features technically, but I figured I'd just go with what each loft recommended. So, the Cruising Direct sail may cost a couple hundred more with a rope luff which then would put it in the Scott Sails price range.

Frank, I see what you’re saying. I got a quote from my local Doyle loft and it is $1090 for a 135% with 5.4oz Supercruise fabric, UV cover, rope luff, and a bag. Only $14 more than Mack, but it’s local and high quality. Still, I’d rather save $260 and go with Scott Sails. Good idea about calling North to get their side of the story. If you don’t mind, could you share with us what they told you? I had a feeling the Cruising Direct rep I spoke to may not have told me the whole story, and may have been just trying to get a sale.

I’ve received a lot of good advice from all of you and I can use all that I can get. I really appreciate the help. I think I’ll call Ullman today. I emailed them last week for a quote, but haven’t heard back.

So, the sails I’m looking at now:
1. Scott Sails: $829 (UV leech and foot covers, foam luff pad, radial patches, leech line, telltales and a bag)
2. Catalina Direct’s: $875 (5.53 ounce premium high performance Dacron sail cloth. Includes Foam luff, leech and foot line, plus a high quality sail bag and a sail tie. It's also cross cut with a UV resistant cloth on the leech and foot.)
3. Cruising Direct: $650 (no foam/rope luff) Price is very appealing, but I don’t want to only go by that factor.

Today I’m going to call North Sails, get their side of the story and try to get a quote directly from Ullman.

Quick edit: I just called my local North loft in Annapolis and she was telling me the only difference is they will come out and measure my boat. She told me that Cruising Direct is used for smaller boats, such as under 30' and cruisers, not racing. I asked if there was a difference in quality from buying from her compared to CD and she said no, that they use the same materials and it would be just as high quality. She asked what boat I had and she said for a Catalina 25, Cruising Direct is perfect for that and they make many C-25 sails. She said they have a lot of CD customers, she recommends them, and said that Dan is very knowledgable. So, this is not what I was expecting to hear at all. I would have thought she would have tried to convince me to buy from her, not CD. Frank, did you hear differently?

Edited by - Justin on 02/08/2006 08:39:46

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 02/08/2006 : 09:45:28

I agree that a foam luff is unnecessary on a 135 for a C25. Also, North developed much of our modern sail technology, and they know how to make good sails. It's going to be hard to beat CDs deal on a North sail, which is an excellent sail, at a very good price. When I bought my C25 in 1981, I ordered the sails from North. When I sold the boat a year ago, I had replaced the mainsail, but still used the 150 and 110, and they were still very fast. You won't go wrong with a CD sail by North.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2006 : 09:51:21

Speaking of quality differences and other apples and oranges type stuff regarding sails, my old main, a North, appeared to be well made and was still a good sail when I sold it. But when comparing the North to my current UK main, the North was like a good suit bought off-the-rack, whereas the UK main looks like it was customed tailored. (My old Venture main looked like it was off-the-rack from the Salvation Army store

)

For example, the four battens on my UK main are unique in respect to their taper and flexibility and each must go into a specific pocket, whereas every other main I've owned had rather generic, non-tapered battens that could be installed into any pocket. Because of their uniqueness, and my history of loosing battens over the side

, I install these battens while sitting securely in the cabin.

Question...Do standard mains ordered off the shelf have unique battens or other distinguishing features?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 02/08/2006 : 10:49:34

Most sailmakers manufacture 3-4 different types of sails. They make sails for racers, sails for daysailing and coastal cruising, sails for long distance offshore sailing, and perhaps another category I'm not thinking of, such as commercial uses. The sails that will be used more heavily will have heavier sailcloth, leather chafe guards, more stitching and more reinforcement. You don't need those features on a C25. In fact, their weight would make them unsuitable for a C25.

As for the length of battens, you can get all sorts of batten arrangements, and that is an option that you can usually specify when you custom-order a sail. The current C25 racing rules say you have to have 4 battens, and they can be any length. The original Catalina 25 sails had 4, and, as I recall, there were two longer ones and two shorter ones. None of them were full battens. Nowadays you can get mainsails with battens in that configuration, or you can get them with all full battens, or with full battens on the two top battens, and shorter battens on the lower two. I believe many sailmakers are currently recommending the latter arrangement. So, to answer Don's question, if you order a sail custom made, the type of battens that you get depends on what type you order. But, if you order off-the-shelf, you'll get whatever the sailmaker decides to use. I have a feeling the better sailmakers are probably using full battens on the top two and shorter battens on the lower ones. Perhaps people who have ordered off-the-shelf mainsails recently will tell us what type of battens they got.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2006 : 11:15:56

Thanks for the info Steve...The reason I have questions concerning sails, particularly new ones, is because in the near future I, too will be in the market for a new headsail, but I've never actually bought a brand spanking new one before. My like new UK main came to me via an unfortunate mishap to a fellow C25 owners boat, so I haven't yet experienced buying a new sail for myself. Of the researched I've done concerning buying a new sail, it seems that local conditions, along with other factors like racing, cruising,...etc, should play a part in the design of the sail. (for example, San Francisco Bay sailors might opt for a flatter cut while Cheasapeke summer sailors might opt for a fuller cut.)

Anyway, like Justin, I'm just trying to figure out what is the best way to go...Again, thanks.

(BTW...my UK main has 1 full top batten and three partial lowers.)

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2006 : 13:00:20

Justin, when I called a North loft two years ago the person did not know who Cruising Direct was and then said he thought it was some marketing thing from the suits. He did some resaerch and called me back and assured me that he would not consider buying one nor did he consider one a North sail.
From what you heard today I would say go for it.
It was me who got the 135 without foam, Gary Swensen recomends against it for my application. Remember I got a custom sail of heavier cloth, flatter cut, higher hoist and lower sweep. I wanted the maximum sail area in an LP that I could carry all the way into reefed main territory. I sail in heavier prevailing winds than you do. I do not expect to furl down until it is over 20. We will see how it does.

Edited by - on

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