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Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/27/2006 : 00:45:23

Well I got out to the club today at 10:00. We had allot of stuff to do on the boat, and crew was going to meet me there. The wind at 11:30 was 25 knots and building, I heard some one say the R/C clocked a gust at 35. First I had to put the boom back onto the boat, Removed the sails except for the main and the 105. Got the builge dry, started the motor... The list goes on and on. At 12:00 the crew showed up. The R/C meeting was at 1:00 for pre-race, and I had gotten everthing ready to go. About 12:30 we made it back up to the club house and talked around with the other crew. 1:00 came and the R/C said they would race.

We went back down to the docks and had our pre-boat meeting The wind was howling threw the mast, and I finally told the crew we were going to stay in. I really wanted to go out and sail. I think it was what my wife told me when I left this morning to have fun that did it for me. There was still things to do on the boat, I wanted to set up the forstay with 12" of rake and 4" of forstay sag, and set the side stays correctly, I had to take a bunsons chair up the mast and work on the spreaders. The PO I guess thought that a cotter pin was enough to hold them in, I had the bolts, and have been putting it off. We broke out the beer, and started working on her.

The first boat came back in about 2:10. The R/C boat was towning a S20 stern First back to the docks. They lost there rig, and the mast looked like a bent toothpick. We met them on Deck, one crew fell into the water, mast was bent, then broke, main sail was cut in two, and all of the halyards going up the mast were gone. We are looking back out and 4 boats look to be comming back into the cove to reef there main sails, as the r/c was getting ready for the first start.

About 3:30 a group of boats came back into the club. A J22 ripped there new jib, and a S2 7.9 Broached to windward, and blew up there spinnaker. Our crew was glad for the call I made on the dock. I want to have fun at the racing, and at this upper wind range I thought we would be just out there Surviving.

At what point do YOU make the call.

C.S. McKillip
Ericson 33

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 06:29:07

Wow you guys (capris) really go for it.
Blowing a spiniker at 25+knots of wind.. I would not even think of being on the water knowing that wind was around. If I were already on the water then reef! I'd be flying a hanky. And if I had a spiniker it would be snug in it's bag if the wind hit 20knts.

I bet you guys really have fun though when the wind is up.

Good decision on staying at the dock is my opinion.

Is your boat name "Adrenalin"?

Paul

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 07:17:25

Good call. If you know it's not going to be fun, then what's the point in going out? Commercial fishermen, etc. have to go out in less than ideal weather -- recreational sailors don't.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 07:32:16

Lemme see...who do I admire? The guy who goes out and pops a chute in 35 kts. and breaks his boat, or the guy who doesn't?

Edited by - on

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 10:52:15

It all depends upon how your boat is set up. When I lived in Wellington, New Zealand, we would race in 30 knots all the time. But that was because Wellington is a windy place, and all the boats are build to take it. All the shrouds and stays are a little heavier, and we carried three spinnakers. It was no big deal to fly the number three spinnaker in 30 knots. Now if you've got only got a number one? You'll probably blow it out.

I wouldn't take my C-25 out in 30 knots. With the swing keel, I'd be very concerned.

Edited by - on

SailormanCGA72
1st Mate

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77 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 11:23:49

"A man's got to know his limitations." Clint Eastwood.
The Steve Sheek corollary is a man's got to know his boat's limitations. I've sailed in 25kts in sheltered water with no big waves and it was no problem. But beyond that or in open seas...our boats are not designed for much more than that. I've sailed 5 of the 7 seas. I don't have anything to prove. Good choice to stay tied up.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 11:38:05

It truly was an amazing day out there, If the winds were a steady 20 to 25 we would have gone out, but I knew the rig needed work, and It was the first race of the series. When the R/c tells you thats its gusting to 35 on a couple of readings, I know I need to stay put. I got another email telling me that another S20 ripped their main sail, and ripped two hanks out of there jib. It just wasn't a good day to race. Counting the repairs I bet our racers need to spend $5000.00 just to get the boats back ready for April 9th. the Spinnaker on the S2 7.9 is over 2 grand. almost every mast cost ovre 1k 2 main sails, and some light repairs will fill in the difference.

And there was another big factor in my desition to stay in. The water is about 40 deg. I value my crew, and they work hard for the boat. But man did I want to go sailing.

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 11:58:31

If we didn't go out in 20 knots we wouldn't be racing. Our races are in the late afternoon/early evening from April to August on SF Bay and the wind pipes up pretty good sometime after 2pm usually. A normal race is in 20 knots. Around the course there is quite a variation of wind speeds. We have had a few survival races where it was gusting just over 40 outside in the open ship channel. Sometimes someone blows a sail. Last year I ripped my main, but it was very old anyway. After a while you cope and get comfortable with up to 30 knots. Over that is a wild ride in our boats.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 12:40:56

Let me add Catalina Capri 25 2750 lbs. take about 1.5" off of your freeboard. From the water to the rail on out boat is about a 22". It tends to be a wet and wild ride. Our last race of 2005 was the MS Regatta it was blowing a steady 25 knots, we flew the spinnaker, and I got the hell beaten out of me by the pole on the Gybe. There have been many times in our San Juan 24 that we have been out in 25-30 knots of wind. that boat weight is about 3300 lbs, and the freeboard was around 36" water to rail. If it was in the summer or fall I wouldn't have had the problem, But the water was cold, and the beer was too.

Safty is my main concern, for the crew first then myself. If my guys have to be wet, cold, and miserable for 3 hrs on the water, then I will stay in and work on the boat. I also do not have a reef in the main sail, it needs to be added for this kind of wind.

Edited by - on

reuben
Navigator

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USA
202 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 13:12:12

When the wind hits 15 knots, I reef; the second reef goes in around 20. Anything over 25 we have difficulty going to windward -- it's the only time I wish for a small hank-on jib. We're going to race a few times this season including the 3-day regatta at summer's end, but I won't hesitate to bow out if the tops of the whitecaps are blowing off.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 14:10:25

When the wind is over 30, it's very difficult to control a C25, either under power or sail. If you have the right sails, and can get them hanked on and get your reef tucked in, then you're probably better off sailing, but most people on inland lakes don't have enough reef points or small enough sails for that much wind. If you can't keep sailing because you don't have the right sails or can't tuck in a reef, and if you can't control the boat under power, you're in a heckuva fix.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/27/2006 14:12:08

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 16:57:51

You need 3 things to sail in lots of wind

(1) the right equipment
(2) a boat setup right
(3) experience.

After you have 1 and 2, you can work on 3. Those were reefed (or double reefed) main and small jib conditions. You did not have the gear (1), nor did you have the boat setup right (2), good call.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 22:33:17

I recently watched a frostbiting race with 14' dinghies in 25-40 knots--"black water" with the whitecaps being blown off in 40-something-degree weather (in 30-something water)... Many racers bowed out, but about a dozen went through with it (in dry-suits)--it was an amazing sight! A few were world champions on various boats, so we got to see some high-skill, highly competitive sailing, even though they were in tiny boats. The winner, as I recall, was an Etchells world champ who locked in the club's winter series championship. I wouldn't have been out there for almost any incentive!

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2006 : 23:02:41

I'm with Steve... above 30 kts the C25 has a lot of hull windage for the amount of boat in the water. Under bare poles she really wants to go where the wind will take her. If her desired course and your course are not in agreement motoring becomes dicey.

If you have the 'right stuff' i.e. a single small jib or double reefed main alone you can sail... provided other elements of the situation (waves, currents, lee shore) aren't too unfavorable.

She does have her limits.

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2006 : 14:57:40

As a kid I usually sailed in "San Luis Res." in central Ca. It is in line of the pass between Monterey and the San Joaquine Valley. There is a light there that changes color depending on wind speed in MPH. less than 15 is green 15 to 30 is yellow, over 30 is red. The wind can go from green to red in about a half hour giving a nice 3 to 4 foot chop. I sailed there with a little styrafoam Sea Snark, a Lido 14, and a Santana 21. Haven't taken the Catalina there, you are not allowed to leave the boat in the water at night time.
With the sea snark, I'd carry a pocket full of plastic rings for when the wind would blow the sail off of the mast. Pull it in put on a new ring and take off again. Amazing what a stupid 14 year old will do. The Santana was a rough ride in these conditions and usually headed right in. I think with a reef in the sail the Catalina would handle it with out a hitch.

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2006 : 15:36:51

My limit has gone way down since blowing out my main a couple of years ago. I have a 80 storm jib and 2 reef points in the main but if it gets bad enough to use those I'm heading in anyway.
To me its not worth the strain on the rigging and the boat. I'd just soon save the boat to sail another day.
I've been to the lake twice this winter in what seemed like perfect weather to sail only to find once I got there the wind was 25-35kts and spraying whitecaps, plus I would be singlehanding, so I took my stuff down to the dock and spent the weekend working on the boat.
Not quite as satisfying as sailing but me and the boat are still around to be able to do it.

Plus it just might have something to do with getting older....

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2006 : 16:52:15

I've had Indiscipline in 30 knots plus (estimated) ocean coastal conditions. She did alright. I was scared. I reefed the main and dropped the jib. Now I have the 60% jib I think I could handle it. My harness and tether were buried that day (not any more).

The boat won't point very well in big winds with no jib and reefed main. Make that won't point at all.

With jib and big air tacking is hard because the bow gets blown all the way around pretty easy.

Autopilot can't handle big air very well - just downwind (I am almost always single handing).

Motor not very useful in big air.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2006 : 18:28:15

I once had my C25 on Brookville Lake with only a single reefed main and a small storm jib, and although the boat was nominally under control, the rail was deeply buried all the time, and I was dumping the mainsail frequently. We get some short, choppy waves, but never any big waves. The boat really needed a second reef to settle it down. That's why I think you need a storm jib and a second reef if you sail on big waters, because you're really exposed when you're on big waters. You might only need it once in 3-4 years, but when you need it, you need it bad. Inland lake sailors can just drop their sails and head for shelter when it gets bad, so they can get by with a single reef.

Edited by - on

Bubba
Admiral

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USA
542 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2006 : 20:09:46

When I crewed for a hot air balloon, we had a saying,
"It's better to be down here wishing you were up there, than up there wishing you were down here."
You get the idea...

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2006 : 21:17:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Bubba
 "It's better to be down here wishing you were up there, than up there wishing you were down here."
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
AMEN!!

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2006 : 21:49:13

Small craft advisories aside, when the winds are howling and the water is nothing but whitecaps, I usually opt to stay in port. Besides, have you ever tried bringing a boat into a slip with a 30 knot crosswind!

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2006 : 21:59:54

I was looking for Don Lucier's post on this -

Anything over about 20 on Lake Erie out of N, E or W (in cleveland - different for whichever shore your on) and your going to think it is blowing about 40 on the open ocean. If that wind had been blowing for a few days, you'd be hard pressed to be able to get the boat outside the breakwall.

The Evelyn 32 skipper has always said if one guy says no, none of us go. We've been together for a long time though and have seen just about everything you can think of, so the threshold is a lot higher than most. If we had one new guy on board who I didn't know or trust, I'd invoke my ability to pull the plug.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2006 : 22:02:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Bubba
 When I crewed for a hot air balloon, we had a saying,
"It's better to be down here wishing you were up there, than up there wishing you were down here."
You get the idea...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We have the similar saying at the Snug Harbor Bar inside the club - better to be drinking a scotch wishing you were out there than to be out there wishing you were in here having a drink....

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2006 : 22:10:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Duane Wolff
 Anything over about 20 on Lake Erie out of N, E or W (in cleveland - different for whichever shore your on) and your going to think it is blowing about 40 on the open ocean. If that wind had been blowing for a few days, you'd be hard pressed to be able to get the boat outside the breakwall.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Indeed, Duane...When the wind pipes up on Lake Erie, it soon becomes the least of your worries.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2006 : 22:35:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Duane Wolff
 I was looking for Don Lucier's post on this -

Anything over about 20 on Lake Erie out of N, E or W (in cleveland - different for whichever shore your on) and your going to think it is blowing about 40 on the open ocean. If that wind had been blowing for a few days, you'd be hard pressed to be able to get the boat outside the breakwall.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Have you been in 40 knots on the open ocean? Breaking 5' wind waves on top of 20' swells is a whole different scene from the Great Lakes, and I grew up on the Great Lakes (Lake Michigan), and gained a substantial appreciation for their own fury.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2006 : 22:50:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Duane Wolff
 I was looking for Don Lucier's post on this -

Anything over about 20 on Lake Erie out of N, E or W (in cleveland - different for whichever shore your on) and your going to think it is blowing about 40 on the open ocean. If that wind had been blowing for a few days, you'd be hard pressed to be able to get the boat outside the breakwall.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Have you been in 40 knots on the open ocean? Breaking 5' wind waves on top of 20' swells is a whole different scene from the Great Lakes, and I grew up on the Great Lakes (Lake Michigan), and gained a substantial appreciation for their own fury.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes Dave I have - and 20-25 on Erie is going to bring way more than 5 footers; I would guess 8-10's easily. You'll also get about 4 to 5 of them for every one of your swells.

I'm not saying I'd want to be out in either, though I have - and neither in a c-25. Just trying to explain that on Lake Erie, the first gust listed at 35 would have had us in the bar, early and often

Edited by - on

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