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sailboat - power boat collision

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Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2006 : 22:16:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gloss
 Hey Don
where did you find those LED rope lights?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Here is what I bought for my cabin and deck. The included cord makes it pretty convenient for hangin on the boom.

http://www.bebi-electronics.com/beka.html

Made in Figi!

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2006 : 22:33:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Whoa, Duane... 50,000 posts?!? This is a milestone of major proportions!

I stand in awe!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

and only one of them is a test post. That is the duanewolff without the space or capitals. He is the bastard that gois in and deletes posts of bad bad people who don't adhere to the rules as posted....

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2006 : 23:22:07

[quote]Originally posted by ClamBeach
 Today's Latitude 38 has an update on the collision... apparently the most seriously injured passenger died from her injuries.

It almost makes one rather pay a fine for having too many or the wrong lighting rather than pay with your life.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/06/2006 : 08:47:48

The loss of this young ladies life is tragic.

As a sailor, I'm naturally hopefull that the captain was not negligent in operation but if so, of course needs to account for his errors.

There still is not enough information to nail this one against the sailor. First, there are no statements by anyone on the sailboat yet. Observations so far are that the sailboat had no running lights and was slowly drifting. And now, a report that the operator was over the legal limit of alchohol.

There is still the possibility that the drifting is a misinterpretation of a boat at anchor, which of course should not be displaying running lights but rather an anchor light. The power boat operator does not say that the sailboat showed no lights, he says that she displayed no running lights.

Now a hypothetical question, if a sailboat legally anchors in the early evening, is the skipper then free to drink at anchor?

My personal take on the question would have to be yes if the skipper is free to leave the boat unatended while legally anchored, what would be the difference of being aboard and under the influence and taking no further actions.

However, if it is not legal to leave a properly anchored boat unatended, then I'd have to say that even while the boat is not under way, the boat is still within the operation responsibility of a sober captain.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2006 : 09:59:32

If a properly anchored boat has to be attended, then I know some places where the marine police could cover the town's entire budget by writing tickets on a single Saturday afternoon! Light or no light, the powerboat operator has a responsibility to see where he's going. Docks, breakwaters, unlighted bouys, moored (legally unlighted) boats, and all sorts of other dark things appear out of nowhere in the dark. If the power-jockey didn't see the sailboat, he was going to fast and/or not paying attention.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2006 : 10:17:25

According to an article in Latitude 38, the powerboat was travelling around 40mph, but the speed limit on the lake at that time of the accident was only 5mph (5 mph after sunset rule).

In the article, the sailboat was said to be drifting. Now I know what navigation lights are to be used while under power, under sail, and while at anchor, but I don't remember reading anything about when a vessel is just drifting. I'd imagine he would still be required to have running lights, but if he's drifting, he probably couldn't make any quick course corrections to avoid a collision anyway.

Edited by - dlucier on 05/06/2006 10:31:35

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2006 : 10:21:13

Ya, I just saw that... SURPRISE!!

At that speed in the dark, he'd be lucky to even see running lights, much less an anchor light. By "drifting across the lake" do they mean the sails were up?

One night years ago in our little daysailer, we were motoring cautiously into the harbor when a Catalina 25 (of all things) passed us at full power (maybe 6 knots) and promptly ran into a channel marker.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/06/2006 10:31:15

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 05/06/2006 : 10:42:07

Don, thanks for the added information. Isn't it amazing that the this [url="http://www.pressdemocrat.com//temp/news/05alcohol_b3b03_empcityb.html"]news writeup[/url] makes a lot of the sailboat operators drinking but nothing of doing 40 miles an hour with a nightime 5 mph restriction by the power boat skipper.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 05/06/2006 10:42:54

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 05/06/2006 : 15:27:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart
 Isn't it amazing that the this [url="http://www.pressdemocrat.com//temp/news/05alcohol_b3b03_empcityb.html"]news writeup[/url] makes a lot of the sailboat operators drinking but nothing of doing 40 miles an hour with a nightime 5 mph restriction by the power boat skipper.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well, the power boat skipper turns out to be the #2 guy in the sheriff's dept..... Perhaps the author doesn't want to irritate the local law enforcement. I suspect this will be playing out for quite a while.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 05/06/2006 : 21:47:35

Thinking that the writer of the article above, simply produced a news segment from a canned release by the Lake County S O, I sent her a few comments and received the following,

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">thank you so much. that helps me know what questions to ask. If they
answer, you should see the answers soon, however, they've been keeping
details to themselves for now, it's how the lake county officials typically
operate during investigations.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 05/06/2006 22:18:36

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 05/06/2006 : 22:58:17

I e-mailed her too. I noticed in her latest report that the collision was directly from the rear. In that case, red-green running lights likely would not be visible--only the white stern light, which as we know can be obscured by shore lights even to a boat traveling at 5 knots. I'd say that whether the sailboat displayed proper lights might be an open issue, but a boat traveling at 40 knots would be very lucky to see them anyway.

The sailboat operator was apparently intoxicated, and perhaps should be charged for that, but that only. It looks to me like the power boat operator is responsible for the death, injuries, distruction, and heartache. Sober, but lethally stupid.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/06/2006 23:01:39

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 05/07/2006 : 08:00:21

Dave, good point about the positioning of the boat.

According to [url="http://www.record-bee.com/Stories/0,1413,255~26901~3303965,00.html#"]another account[/url], at least one of the occupants of the sailboat, offers that the sailboat was not displaying running lights.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2006 : 17:26:14

Dave, I received an invite for comments a few minutes ago from Glenda Anderson to a follow up story on the speed, etc.... she didn't point to the article so I'm guessing it is not online yet.

Follow up, she just called and discussed the incident. She said the accident happened in what was considered open water, 1/4 mile from shore, and that there was no speed limit on open water after dark.

She said the sailboat had sail up and was not showing lights and that the operators had been celebrating a good day racing.

If those are indeed the realities, the sailboat captain messed up big time.

Lesson for us sailors, anchor before drinking and of course show proper lights.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 05/08/2006 18:12:15

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2006 : 18:01:20

Do we know if the sailboat had sails up or was drifting with bare poles?

Additionally, the owner of the sailboat was reportedly intoxicated, but was he at the helm of the boat or did he have a designated driver?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2006 : 18:24:21

While the sailboat captain was apparently intoxicated, his boat was essentially standing still. While the powerboater was apparently sober, his vessel was reportedly traveling at something like eight times the speed limit--sorta like a car driving at 200 mph in a 25 mph residential zone. At that speed, it's unlikely he would've seen a little white stern light against what is likely to be a backdrop of shore lights. That's why they have night-time speed restrictions.

One person forgot to flip a switch that in all likelihood would have made no difference--the other person (a sheriff, no less) conciously and flagerantly broke the law. The result: a death. I shudder when I think about how close a big police boat came to running my wife and me over in our little daysailer in broad daylight in Darien, CT, a few years ago--made me think about putting a horn button on the tiller!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/08/2006 18:27:15

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 05/08/2006 : 20:11:30

It appears that we are hearing two voices in regard to the speed limitations of night hours.

When the reporter mailed and asked if I would comment on her follow on the speed, etc. I thought she was talking about a follow up article she had produced relative to the accident. I responded sure, point me to the link.

When she suggested a call, I wondered and discovered she was amazed that her article had caught the attention of others across the country and I think was hunting materiel to make a story of that.

At any rate, my original curiosity that centered mostly around the "drifting" word by the power boat operator, is satisfied. I was concerned that drifting might have been wrongly interpreted for being at anchor, which would have totally changed things and it now appears that the boat was infact undersail, though it might not have been moving or moving much. It is reported that the operator was intoxicated and not showing navigation lights.

She did verify that the power boat was traveling at 40 mph and wished my opinion about that speed. I believe her chief reason for calling was to get opinion about whether the speed was reasonable.

My reply was to reference her to the Coast Guard requirement that every operator shall maintain such lookout that they are able to take required evasive action to avoid a collision with another boat. The power boat skippers speed well overshot his watch requirement and ability to take evasive action.

I offered that in the history of maritime accidents, rarely is one boat ever charged with full blame because of the requirements that both skippers keep watch and take evasive action and an accident generally means that both skippers were negligent in that responsibility.

I allowed that in my opinion, the sailboat skipper certainly shared the brunt of responsibility. In fact now giving numbers to it, I'd give counts to both operators for insufficient lookouts and not taking evasive action to avoid the collision. I'd further add a counts to the sailboat skipper for improper lighting as well as tripple counts for operating intoxicated. That would be six counts, 75% against the sailboat skipper and two, 25% against the power boater.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 05/08/2006 20:14:50

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/08/2006 : 20:27:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart
 I allowed that in my opinion, the sailboat skipper certainly shared the brunt of responsibility...75% against the sailboat skipper and two, 25% against the power boater.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

For me, the powerboater would have a higher percentage of culpability because if conditions are such that you can't see a 27ft sailboat with sails up, then you shouldn't be going 40mph! Geez, I have a hard time seeing the channel cans at my marina and I'm just crawling.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2006 : 08:24:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 For me, the powerboater would have a higher percentage of culpability because if conditions are such that you can't see a 27ft sailboat with sails up, then you shouldn't be going 40mph! Geez, I have a hard time seeing the channel cans at my marina and I'm just crawling.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
My point, exactly. If the sailor hadn't been drunk, maybe he would have remembered to turn on his running lights, but he wouldn't have been able to do much else to avoid the collision. On the other hand, going 40 in the dark on a lake (with shore lights) makes the likelihood of seeing a low, white light almost negligible. After all, there were white sails over 35' in the air. The reporter (and many other people) probably have no idea how difficult it is to see things on the water in the dark even at a very low speed, or how fast 40 is in a boat. There are other "things" that could be out there with no lights. I don't buy that the running lights were nearly as much of a factor as the speed, or that the sailor's blood alcohol was much of a factor at all. Speed kills, and it did.

PS: This isn't just an Admiralty Court issue--it could well be a manslaughter trial issue. Arlyn, which person do you suspect of killing the woman?

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/09/2006 09:08:01

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 05/09/2006 : 10:09:26

Dave, first... I like marine law which factors blame rather than sensing a need to lay it all on one person and ignoring the infractions of the other party.

However, this could end up in a court that desires to asses manslaughter and I'd have to say the greatest factor is the intoxication, which likely impaired the judgement to turn on the navigation lights, which have been science and time tested to be the agents of recognition after dark.

I think it reasonable to conclude that the power boater if afforded the ability to identify navigation lights on the sailboat would have controlled his speed and course to avoid collision.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 05/09/2006 : 10:26:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart
 Dave, first... I like marine law which factors blame rather than sensing a need to lay it all on one person and ignoring the infractions of the other party.

However, this could end up in a court that desires to asses manslaughter and I'd have to say the greatest factor is the intoxication, which likely impaired the judgement to turn on the navigation lights, which have been science and time tested to be the agents of recognition after dark.

I think it reasonable to conclude that the power boater if afforded the ability to identify navigation lights on the sailboat would have controlled his speed and course to avoid collision.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well, we see the world differently... Sober, he might have forgotten his lights, too. (Have you ever in your life forgotten to turn on your headlights in the dark? Were you drunk at the time?)

I think it's reasonable to conclude that a small, virtually stationary, white sternlight on a lake might not have made any difference, but that driving the powerboat considerably less than eight times the legal limit (very fast even in daylight) almost certainly would have. That has been time-tested, too, and is the reason for the 5mph limit. At five, even if he'd managed to run into the sailboat (not likely), it's unlikely anyone would have gotten more than a bruise from falling down. It'd also likely that the people in the sailboat would have gotten the powerboater's attention somehow (if, for example, he was taking a leak over the transom or something). I see it as negligence versus gross negligence.

BTW, I'm both a sailor and a powerboater--over 50 years of both, with plenty of night experience on both, so I don't think I'm speaking from a biased point of view.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/09/2006 10:47:33

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 05/09/2006 : 10:48:01

You may have missed the comments above by the reporter who disagreed with the Latitude 38 claim that a 5 mph speed limit existed. She claims that the lake had no speed restrictions on open water and my conclusions are based on that.

If indeed there was a 5 mph speed restriction the ball game changes.

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
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Response Posted - 05/09/2006 : 11:13:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I see it as negligence versus gross negligence.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I agree.

I too have been driving boats of all kinds for 43 years in all types of conditions and at night and the most important rule I've found, day or night, use common sense.

Say a drunk guy is walking down the sidwalk and decides to cross the road. He's not at an intersection but he's going to do it anyway, jaywalking.
A car comes barreling down the road doing 80 in a 30 zone not drunk but not paying attention to the road.
Of course he splatters the drunk guy all over the front of his car but doesn't recieve any injuries himself.
Who gets cited for negligence. The guy who jaywalked or the guy who was going 50mph over the posted speed not paying attention to the road ahead of him? And the drunk guy didn't have a 300 square foot piece of white cloth sticking 35-40 feet in the air above him.

I know this is a far fetched analogy but it will just irritate me if they find no fault on the part of the power boater.
I don't care if there was no speed limit in the area he was in you alway have someone on lookout and you always adjust your speed for the conditions you're in.

Common sense.

ok, back in my hole.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2006 : 11:37:48

Perhaps she's right... From the Lake County, CA, code:
------------------------------------------------------
Sec. 15-2. General Rules of Operation.

2.1 Every operator of a motor boat upon the water of Clear Lake or Blue Lakes shall at all times navigate the same in a careful prudent manner and at such rate of speed so as not to endanger the life, limb, or property of any person. (Ord. No. 223, § 5, 1939; Ord. No. 419, § 1, 1958; Ord. No. 763, § 1, 9-4-73)

2.2 Reckless navigation of a motor boat shall include operating the same in a manner which unnecessarily interferes with the free and proper use of the waters of Clear Lake, Blue Lakes, or the navigable waters of Cache Creek, or unnecessarily endangers other boats thereon, or the life and limb of any person. (Ord. No. 223, § 5, 1939; Ord. No. 419, § 1, 1958)

2.3 No person shall operate any motor boat on the waters of Clear Lake, Blue Lakes, or the navigable waters of Cache Creek at a rate of speed greater than will permit him in the exercise of reasonable care to bring the motor boat to a stop within the assured clear distance ahead. (Ord. No. 223, § 5, 1939; Ord. No. 419, § 1, 1958)
---------------------------------------------------
Now, it could be said that the sailboat captain did not "navigate in a prudent manner" when he forgot to turn on his lights. But as an experienced boater, I believe that the powerboater substantially exceeded the limits implied by these three articles. Visibility on a lake in the dark is horrible even if you are paying attention, and the assured clear distance ahead is zero at 40 mph in the dark.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/09/2006 11:40:50

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 05/09/2006 : 15:59:16

I have to agree with Dave and Charlie on this one. I'd proportion the blame to 95% power/5% sail, although even if the sailboat had had his nav lights on and were seen by the powerboat, I doubt whether the powerboat could have avoided him at that speed. 40 mph on a lake in the dark is criminal behaviour in my book, which is why we stay in our slip after nightfall on holiday weekends.
Derek

Edited by - on

aeckhart
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Response Posted - 05/15/2006 : 08:55:44

We have a lot of fisherman trolling for walleye at night in my home waters. I was also hit by a powerboater four years ago. In my opinion. none look for or can see an anchor light at the mast head. I now use a Davis mini light- the cockpit model, over the cabin top. It burns brightly and has a photocell to turn it off at sunrise. It has worked well since I started using it, although I am considering a second light near the bow. I am also cosidering an LED masthead light in the near future, one that also has a dusk-to-dawn feature. Someone posted the link here a few weeks ago, for a company that makes them.

Edited by - on

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