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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Third generation rudder modification

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JohnMD
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/18/2006 : 11:04:44

Has anyone ever tried to modify a third generation rudder by adding a few inches of glass to the bottom? I have a third generation rudder and , of course, I have problems with broaching, controlling the boat at slow speeds, and excessive weather helm. Yes, I know, there are several ways of dealing with these issues, but, has anyone ever lengthened the existing rudder by adding a couple of inches of fiberglass to the bottom? I wonder how much that would help?

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2006 : 13:01:50

Ahh... Lake Texoma is offering some aggressive conditions I see.

A discussion with Gerry Douglas about the inadequacy of the 3rd wasn't what he wanted to hear after the third attempt at a suitable rudder for the 250.

He argued the rudder was adequate and I quiered how can that be if it won't hold control of the boat and is very often in some state of stall (dragging sideways with great drag and turbulence). My final statement to him was that while it might be adequate for docile use... it wasn't for more agressive conditions.

You may or may not know... it was a surprise to me... that there are in fact two third generation rudders... one for the wb and one for the wing. I've tried to spread the word that those buying the 3rd and sailing in aggressive venues should get the longer wing keel version if they are willing to trade shipping the rudder after launch and before retrieve for better control. If I recall, it is about ten inches longer.

I don't know if the full ten inches would be a bench mark... it would be very nice to get some reports from wb owners who may have gone with the longer third.

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Quentin
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2006 : 20:07:43

Arlyn,

This is my second season with the long third generation rudder (hull # 153 WB). The rudder is the only one I know...it came with Old Bombay II when I purchased her. I have been doing some aggressive sailing and the rudder performs great! I have none of the problems described.

However as you pointed out the rudder requires that one become proficient at yanking it off and putting it back on (I have practice practice). If you are in a slip and sail deep water you don't have to remove it but heck why have a swing keel? Sooo......still not a perfect rudder but after reading about the problems I wouldn't give it up.

I would like to hear a report on the Catalina offered - Ida kick up rudder. The Holy Grail? Wouldn't it be nice to have third generation (long) performance that kicks up and allows us to negotiate the skinny water.

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moserd
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2006 : 07:14:05

I have a 2005 WK with what I suspect is the long version of the 3rd generation rudder. It reaches all the way (as best as I can tell by eye on the trailer)to the bottom of the wing. I have not experienced the roundups or steering issues that many have described on this forum. As a matter of fact as we were trying to 'show up' my middle son who did not think the boat would lean far my youngest son pushed the boat over far enough that the oldest was 'sitting' on the mast. At that point in time the boat did roundup (imagine that!), the first time I have had that happen. I normally do NOT push the boat that far!

I have a 'new' rudder from Catalina since my first rudder experienced 'cracks' along the mounts. I have a new issue though noted the other day. The rudder seemed to be 'clunking' and I found that the lower gudgeon was loose (about 1/4 inch of gap). I of course tightened this but since the bolts have nylock nuts cannot determine how this got loose. Is the rudder compressing?

Thanks,

Don

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2006 : 09:31:06

Don, you said that the lower gudgeon was loose but then seemed to point to the pintle as wondering if the rudder had compressed so I'll comment on both.

The gudgeon is the female boat section of the hinge and has brass backing plates that the gudgeon bolts screw into and then if I recall correctly there are backing nuts.

A pintle is the male portion of the hinge with attachment to the rudder. If it loosened enough to make clunking sounds, I'm thinking the holes have wollerd (sp) and should be redone.

I'd suggest doing only one pintle at a time if both need work. Remove the rudder and inspect the holes for any loose materiel and if there is some, oversize drill the holes to get a clean hole in good materiel. The holes should be oversized about twice the required bolt size. Doing so provides a compression collar within the rudder and seals the inside of the hole so that water doesn't infiltrate the rudder.

Tape one side and lay the open side up and fill the holes with epoxy resin. Place the pintle in the gudgeon and mount the rudder on the good pintle and support it in position on the other. Drill holes about half the size required for the bolts, drill the first side only half way through the rudder and then drill from the other side all the way through. This will ensure an aligned hole all the way through. Now, drill for finish size and bolt the pintle in place.

Clunking can also be from a bearing broken loose from its weld on the gudgeon.

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2006 : 09:36:50

Quentin, the second generation beaching (after mods to rudder head) is very close to ideal in performance. Mine has horizontal crazing cracks which may only be gel coat stress. Others have noted the same. The only actual report of one breaking is from an Aussie sailing in very aggressive conditions on NE coast of Australia.

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bill bosworth
Navigator

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USA
172 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2006 : 20:35:35

John;
I modified my 3rd gen rudder by adding a wing to the bottom of it. The wing is made out of a piece of 1/4" Lexan about 9" x 14". I feel that it has made a great improvement in the this rudder. We have sailed it aggresively on many occasions and have had very little problem with rounding up or maintaining control. I also have a 2nd gen kick up rudder, we have gone between the 3rd with the wing and the 2nd gen several times, and both my wife and I prefer the 3rd gen. I would caution that I have had a problem with the rudder developing a crack between the pintails, the rudder was repaired twice by Catalina and a third (and hopfully final) time by me. I don't know if this was a design flaw with the construction of the rudder, or if the wing exerts unusual stress. I would think the stress from the wing must be less than that of the long 3rd design. If you are interested in this modification, I can include some pictures and additional info. Adding the wing is an easy mod and one that is easly removed if you don't like it.

Bill
C250wb #134 Serendipity

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