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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Does anyone use Camcleats (sp) for jib sheets?

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/10/2006 : 17:45:39

Hi All, I have normal cleats for my Jib sheets but when I am on a starboard tack, I have been using the camcleat for the furler line for the jib sheet. It seems very convienent(sp) and was thinking about mounting one on the other side. Is this lame? Cheers.

Dennis
No Boat
S.E. Michigan

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2006 : 20:14:08

I added two cam cleats for that purpose--positioned so I can hook the sheet under one horn of the regular cleat and then snap it into the cam. Otherwise, the angle off the winch is a little high for a cam cleat. Works great!

Edited by - on

DanM
Captain

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USA
256 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2006 : 07:35:54

Check out the risers and wedges from Harken. At $4-8.00, they make the high angle off the winch to the cam cleat manageable. It takes some experimentation to figure the right mounting location and height for your personal sailing style. I suggest sailing with someone who has them.

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2006 : 07:54:08

Instead of cleats, I use winchers on my jib sheet winches. They hold the line securely and can easily be released in an emergency. I love these things. My only complaint is that my new winchers that I recently installed new broken in a little bit. You can see what they look like in this picture.

With this method, you don't have to drill any more holes in your boat.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2006 : 23:58:46

Before I had self-tailing winches, I used camcleats on risers, as DanM mentioned in his post. They worked well, and are probably the best solution for jib sheets if you don't want to spend the $$$$ to upgrade to self-tailers. A pair of Lewmar or Harken #16 self-tailers will set you back about $900, a pair of camcleats and risers less than $100.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2006 : 02:29:12

or a pair of winhcers 60.00

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2006 : 07:25:23

I bought some cam cleats for this same purpose.
Dave, do you have a photo showing where you mounted yours close to the horn cleat? I'm thinking about mounting mine behind the horn cleat on the side facing into the cockpit. Is that what you did?

Thanks.

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2006 : 07:35:15

Hi Justin, I think I am going to replace my horn cleats with camcleats on swivel bases. That way I can have better control of the leeward sheet from the windward side. Cheers.

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2006 : 10:13:58

Dennis,<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I think I am going to replace my horn cleats with camcleats on swivel bases. That way I can have better control of the leeward sheet from the windward side.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I understand the advantages of being able to control the jibsheet from the windward side. Are you talking about pivoting camcleats with bulls eye fairleads? Or have you found camcleats on swivel bases which work OK without closed fairleads? I'm thinking a closed fairlead on winched sheet could be a little inconvenient when trying to quickly release the sheet from the winch during a tack.

I think I've also seen small sloops (20'..30' or so) rigged with two cam- or Clam- cleats for each primary winch -- one aimed at the helmsman for singlehanding, and one positioned for use by a trimmer on the windward coaming. Although finding a place to mount a cleat for windward sheeting seems a bit tricky to me.

As others have mentioned, either type of open jaw cleat will have a better lead coming off the winch if raised and angled. Although the manufactured plastic wedges certainly are convenient to install, I'd be tempted to consider a custom shaped block of teak too.

-- Leon Sisson

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Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2006 : 12:41:18

I really want to think it through before I drill some holes. Having better control of the leeward sheet while on the windward side is one concern I have. If I hook the sheet under the horn cleat into the cam cleat, I would have to go leeward and place it under. It would be nice to be able to snap it into the cam cleat while staying on the windward side, especially when heeling over quite a bit.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2006 : 14:20:15

For those wanting to remain on the windward side while making jib sheet adjustments, you might try cross sheeting to the opposite winch. I sometimes do this when beating to windward and the winds are up as well as the angle of heel. On all other points of sail, I don't find it necessary to cross sheet.

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Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2006 : 21:13:27

Hi Don,

I actually just tried that out this passed weekend. I wasn't sure if people do that and if there was any reason not too besides it blocking the cockpit. I found it handy while we were sailing close hauled, tacking back and fourth several times, it left the sheet within closer reach. Glad to hear others do it as well.

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jedperkins
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2006 : 23:10:12

I use a cam cleat for the furling line on my jib, added it last winter. Best addition I ever made to my boat. We have highly variable winds on my lake, and I am reefing and unfurling my jib much more this year, and it has really improved my sailing.

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mcollard
1st Mate

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USA
38 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2006 : 23:47:57

I had camcleats for the jib sheets on my C22, which I sold a couple of months ago, and I loved them. I could easily cleat and uncleat them from the windward side without actually cross-sheeting. There were small teak risers probably made by a PO.

I miss them, and am strongly considering adding them to my C25.

Edited by - on

Designwiz
1st Mate

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USA
59 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2006 : 10:18:48

Hi: Installed a pair of Harken camcleats with fairleads for the jib sheet lines two years ago and never regreted it. I have a 110 jib and can uncleat them in all conditions. I do think a big head sail (155) and strong winds might require some strenght to release the camcleat. I was told that on a bigger boat with more head sail you would not be strong enough to release the locking action of the cleat....honestly I would tend to agree with them. Works great on a 25....position them so that the camcleat is high enough and at a right angle to the sheet line coming of the winch.

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David Zumwalt
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2006 : 13:24:59

Ben, who did you purchase your winchers from?

Thanks, Dave

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2006 : 14:39:39

David, I purchase my winchers from West Marine. There are different sizes based upon the diameter of your winch drum. My winches are Lewmar 7s, and they took the smallest winchers available. They were $40.00.

You might benefit from additional research though. I might have been able to use the next size up on the winchers. What happened when I installed my new winchers was my jib sheet didn't fit anymore.

So another trip to West Marine and $40-some dollars later for a new sheet and I was all set.

Edited by - Ben on 07/13/2006 14:42:17

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2006 : 19:19:18

Hi James, this is exactly what I was looking at buy and installing. One question comes to mind that I think Leon mentioned....with the fairlead and crown peice (I don't know what the little thingy going across the two cams is called) can you just let fly when tacking? Or do you have to feed the line slack so it won't go back into the cams and also will work its way around the winch?

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2006 : 22:28:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Justin4192
 Dave, do you have a photo showing where you mounted yours close to the horn cleat? I'm thinking about mounting mine behind the horn cleat on the side facing into the cockpit. Is that what you did?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yup. Sorry, I don't have a pic at hand. I thought about risers but decided this was simpler. Anyway, to trim my sheets, I find I need to keep the tails above the winches, which would require quite a riser. I trim, hook, and snap the sheet into the cam. Other methods might be as good or better, although I'm not sold on the fairlead--it seems it would be more cumbersome for putting raps on the winch or taking them off.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/13/2006 22:30:55

DanM
Captain

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USA
256 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2006 : 08:54:08

My jib cleats look like Mike's and are positioned to face a little more aft, but the risers add about 1". That helps when sheeting from the high side.

I am happy that there is no fairlead. It is easier to free the wraps from the winch on short tacks, when you don't have time in between to be tidy.

The swivel idea may remedy the different angles whether you are single-handing or have crew. Yesterday, in light air, I found myself sitting forward while my sister steered, both of us on the low side. It was awkward to snub the sheet into the rear-facing cam from that position, although there wasn't much tension.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2006 : 09:33:08

Dennis, James, et all,
I think James has done a wonderful installation of one of the great pieces of dingy sailing hardware. However, I cannot condone his design. The inability to change the number of wraps on the winch with a single hand. whether higher or lower, is a very dangerous outcome of the use of that dingy hardware. James, I do not know what the wind conditions are where you sail. I could not skipper a safe boat in our wind conditions without the ability to add a wrap or two to grind-in in a gust or the ability to toss off a wrap or two to sheet out in a lull. Dennis, that this seems to be working for James does not mean it is a safe and good idea for you. Please give this some serious thought before you drill holes that you will probably regret. (Those swivel cleats good be put to good use on a cabintop.)

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Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2006 : 10:01:49

After reading this thread again, I have to say that there have been some nice upgrades to the boats, BUT as Frank states if the wind is up, and you tack, how are you going to unload that winch?

Second thing that comes to mind is that the line is loaded up and you release the sheet and it gets a kink in the sheet and jams in the fairlead off of the Cam.

There are too many times on our boat where we are going to windward and we are tacking allot, we have gotten some good over rides from just the sheet not coming off of the winch correctly.

I can see the problem with the horn cleats as you can loose some ground having to tie it on, and off to tack, I would install a JAM cleat that is on the verticle part of the cockpit (back rest) right inline with the winch, If you need to release the sheet you just pull on it.

Cross sheeting is a great option to being able to get on the high side of the boat, Add a cheek block on the deck before the winch, then sheet it over to the other side. Loaded lines can be very tricky to work with, and sometimes you have no control how they will react loaded up then released.

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2006 : 15:00:37

I took the boat out today and determined the for 99% of my sailing, I could use an open camcleat at a 45 degree inside angle from the winch about 10 inches away. I think that no matter what the situation, I could get the sheet into the cams.

Frank, as I was sailing the same thought came to me. And, as I was thinking about all this and trying to put another wrap on my winch, a gust came and I got my index finger stuck in the wrap. I could just imagine if I was trying to do this with the fairlead constricting my motion.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2006 : 21:44:15

I definitely encourage the use of cam cleats for the jib sheets - WITHOUT fairleads etc. The ability to throw off a sheet instantly is priceless! Both Harken & Ronstan (preferred brand)sell plastic risers to go under the cleats which work perfectly. Even if I was not a racer I would not have either winchers or self-tailing winches.
Derek

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2006 : 20:45:19

I agree with Derek - less the self tailing issue - self tailers are just as easy to release. In either case, you need to have an ability to get the thing off the quick quickly.

We use Clam cleats on the big boat and have, but not yet installed, CAM's for the catalina.

The Evelyn is a racer only, so the clams are for the rare time when the sheet actually gets cleated. They give you the opportunity for quick release.

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SJ
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2006 : 10:06:02

I have "JAM" cleats mounted on a wedge next to the winches. Each JAM is loacted in a bit of a different location and at different angles depending on how the sheet lead off the winch. I loaded each winch and then placed the JAM and Wedge in position to best meet the direction and angle of the sheet as it came off the winch. Now that I figured out how to show pics I'll get a few next time I get a chance to see my boat. Son is racing in the OPTI Nationals next week, and I'm not sure how much time I'll have to grab a shot. But, the way I have the JAM's set up all I have to do is lift the sheet off to tack and then once the jib is around set the sail and lay the sheet into the JAM. Real easy to get to and a sinch to adjust.

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