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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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racing and gybe pole

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Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/17/2006 : 21:03:27

At tonight's monday night racing I was on the third and final leg running almost with the wind. We put out the gybe pole to port and we were a little off wind so we could not run wing on wing. I had the jib and the main on the same side using the pole on the jib. Is that illegal under racing rules? Our races are not real formal, so someone just mentioned it to me in passing.

We got first!

Turk

www.turk.mysailboatblog.com
2003 C250 WK #663
Northeast Ohio
Mosquito Lake/Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2006 : 22:06:09

Completely Legal. The mainsail determines your tack or gybe (stbd or port) There is absolutely no designated side for anything. The pole must be attached at the mast that is about it. You might not be as efficient as you could have been without a pole in that instance...then again if you were running down enough, you may have been better than wing on wing - I know my boat performs better without doing that.....

In any case you did not violate any rules that I have ever heard of. The guy who thought you did is probably misguided.

The only deal with PHRF-LE (not sure if your race was on erie or on Mosquito Lake) the max pole size is 10'6". Other than that set it however you want.

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2006 : 22:29:04

Great! I'll let the person know.

Thanks!

Edited by - on

Heartbeat
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2006 : 09:12:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Duane Wolff
 Completely Legal.

...

The only deal with PHRF-LE (not sure if your race was on erie or on Mosquito Lake) the max pole size is 10'6". Other than that set it however you want.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree with Duane - completely legal. I use this trick quite a bit myself.

Is the pole length limited by your area, Duane?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">C-25 and C250 Rules.
4. Whisker poles including end fittings may not exceed 16 feet, 3 1/4 inches. Telescoping whisker poles may be used, providing they are banded in a manner as to appear as one 2" band at each joint when adjusted properly or two narrow bands when over-extended at each joint.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I use an extending whisker pole, and that extra 5 and change feet really helps. My spinnaker pole is only 10'6".

-Matt Q.

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2006 : 11:30:09

No - you will find that almost all areas allow a pole equal to the J dimension unless it is a class sanction race or a race using class rules.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2006 : 11:32:44

Years ago I was told that the rule was that the boom and whisker pole had to be on opposite sides. I vaguely remember looking it up, and I believe it was true at that time.

If someone told you about it, they must have been older racers who didn't realize the rule has changed.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2006 : 11:51:24

I'll do some research Steve. Intuitively it doesn't seem right.

dw

It entirely rests with which handicap class you are racing under. Since Our boats really don’t qualify for anything other than IRC, Portsmouth and PHRF I would say it doesn’t matter. (Your local PHRF rules may vary)

I just checked RRS, 50.2 and 50.3C –

50.2 Spinnaker Poles; Whisker Poles
Only one spinnaker pole or whisker pole shall be used at a time except
when gybing. When in use, it shall be attached to the foremost mast.

50.3 Use of Outriggers
(c) A headsail may be sheeted or attached at its clew to a spinnaker
pole or whisker pole, provided that a spinnaker is not set.

Local PHRF – in this case PHRF-LE which doesn’t deviate far from the norm for most large bodies of water has the following:
From the JAM Section
12.1.4 Whisker poles may be used to extend the jib clew when sailing downwind. However they must be no longer than the PHRF spinnaker pole (J) dimension and if extensible must have the PHRF measured length clearly marked. Any strut used must be attached to the mast in use in conformance with the USSA Racing Rules Provisions.

Spinnaker poles
Up to 100% of J – No adjustment
101-105% of J -3 seconds
106% to 110% - 6 seconds
Each Additional 5% -3 Seconds

IRC has similar rules

We don’t qualify for Americap or Americap II however they do have this…..

iii. Non-Spinnaker Divisions -The clew of a jib may be poled out only to the side opposite the main boom and only with the boat’s rated spinnaker pole - the luff of the jib shall be fully attached to the forestay. An inner staysail and a mizzen staysail are permitted if including within the boat’s rating.

Portsmouth Yardstick only has this statement in their rules
• Spinnaker pole length equal to "J"

ORR
Spinnaker pole not to exceed J and sheeted to a side opposite the boom.

Did not find anything with regard to MORC or IMS

Edited by - Champipple on 07/18/2006 12:28:57

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2006 : 21:44:46

I will print out all of your comments and give them to the person how brought this up. He may be thinking of the older rule. They have been involved in racing for many many years.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2006 : 10:07:27

"Whisker poles may be used to extend the jib clew when sailing downwind. However they must be no longer than the PHRF spinnaker pole (J) dimension and if extensible must have the PHRF measured length clearly marked."
Duane - I don't understand the reason for this - using a 10' 6" pole on a 155% genoa is as useless as mammary glands on a male bovine! It would seem that the rule makers are using "whisker pole" and "spinnaker pole" interchangeably - and they definitely are not.
Until the last or last but one rule change, it was illegal to pole out on the boom side. Now it is legal.
Do you yourself use a whisker pole? How long is it when deployed? Mine is 15' 9".
Derek

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2006 : 10:56:52

As far as the dimension on the pole (whisker or spinnaker) I don't know of the reasoning for the length. I just know that is what appears to be written in all of the handicapping class rules. I don't disagree with your analogy, I prefer "teats on a boar hog", but get the gist of what you are saying. I did not find any rulebook for handicap racing that allows a larger whisker pole...That isn't to say they don't exist, I just didn't find them.

I've almost always raced with a spinnaker, so the poling out of the jib and either side has never been an issue. The side of the pole seems to be a rule in a few of the handicap organizations, but not most.

No I don't use a whisker pole. I've found that in heavy air it isn't needed and in light air low side weight and constant sail trim is more desirable and faster.

Edited by - on

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