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25 Swing Keel characteristics

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Ryan
Deckhand

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Initially Posted - 07/30/2006 : 09:09:38

I am looking at purchasing a 1980 Catalina 25 swing keel. Can you guys/girls give me an idea how the swing keel boats sail/handle compared to fixed keel boats of similar size? I am accustomed to fixed keel sailing, and I am a little concerned about the swing keel boat being less stable/more tender.

For those of you that trailer your swing keel boat, is there anything particular about the trailer or can any sailboat ready trailer be used? Does the weight of the boat rest on the swing keel trunk when on the trailer?

Thanks in advance for any information.

Ryan

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2006 : 09:28:26

Hi Ryan, I have sail other than c25 fixed keel boat of the same size and my experience is not THAT extensive, but I did not really notice a difference between the two types of boats.

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Jay Schkloven
1st Mate

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USA
84 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2006 : 10:03:59

The swing keel will side slip a bit more than the fin keel. With the keel down the boat is very stable. Put the keel all the way down and then take two full turns on the winch to tighten the cable and you are ready. The cable will hum as the speed increases.
The keel is not made for holding the weight of the boat. On a trailer rollers or bunks need to support the boat and the keel should be lower to its own support point.
Tighten the cable before launching and launch. You can motor without the keel down but the ride is better with it down.
The SK is a great choice for areas that can get shallow.

Edited by - on

Jay Schkloven
1st Mate

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USA
84 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2006 : 10:05:58

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2006 : 10:33:20

Welcome, Ryan... I'm not a swinger, but I've been around a few C-25s in my time... I'm not convinced that the swinger side-slips more than the fin--it actually draws more and is a somewhat thinner foil. I believe a few head-to-head confrontations over the years have shown the swinger to be a bit faster and point at least as well.

As for tenderness, it provides 400# less ballast (1500 vs. 1900), but its depth should counteract at least some of that by providing a longer lever-arm.

All of that said, it might be good for us to know where you plan to use it... In salt water, it needs regular (annual) inspection and maintenance, and in seas that are big enough to toss the C-25 around a little, it isn't the ideal choice (not just my opinion). In a lake with some thin water or a shallow bay, it can be very useful, and of course it has an advantage for trailing, although the newer wing draws only a couple of inches more than the fully-raised swing (and the fully-raised swing will not be stable under sail). But some say that when you run aground with the swinger, you just crank it up a little, but when you run aground with the wing, there you are--possibly dug in like a plow anchor!

So as with many issues, "it depends." What say ye?

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/30/2006 10:36:21

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/30/2006 : 10:48:48

I've been very pleased with the performance of my SK. IMHO: Not tender at all. Handles predictably and is well mannered on all points of sail.

There are 6 maintenance points on a swinger that need periodic inspection. This should be done a minimum of every 2 years in saltwater. I think the interval on most service items can go a lot longer in in freshwater.

If you are buying a swinger, you should take a look at these points. The bits and pieces aren't very expensive. The most difficult repair you will face is if the keel is loose on the hinge pin. The rest of the items are pretty easy.

1) Keel pipe/turning ball. Inspect/replace the hose and clamps as needed. (hose cracked, brittle, clamps rusty etc). Lubricate the shaft on the turning ball (mounted in the hull opening so the cable feeds around it) and replace the turning ball assembly if it is gouged, rough or frozen. Note: This service must be done out of the water!

2) Winch. Inspect, clean, paint, lubricate as needed.(no oil on brake pads!)

3) Keel Cable. Inspect, replace every 2 years in saltwater (min). In freshwater use the cable can stay in service a lot longer... I'd probably replace every 5 years or so as a general principle.

4) Keel Cable attachment to Keel. Upgrade to a new style fitting available from Catalina Direct. Inspect/clean/replace the fitting as needed. (check for corrosion, bent pin, etc)

5) Keel hinges/hinge pin. Inspect and service as needed. Check for worn or loose fit of pin in the hinges or between the hinge pin and the keel.

6) Fit of keel head in trunk. Inspect and adjust to 'hand in glove' fit. Shim kits are available from Catalina Direct for this purpose or you can use a little epoxy buildup. This keeps the keel nice and stable in the side-to-side axis.

If you buy a C25, be sure to get the 'C25 owners bible' from Catalina Direct. It has all the parts you will need and there is lots of valuable information is in the booklet. Catalina Direct has recently upgraded their web site so most of the parts are now available online.

Another 'must do' is joining up here. Worth it's weight in gold. The support and community found here is one of the best reasons to own a C25.

Edited by - ClamBeach on 07/30/2006 10:57:55

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2006 : 11:17:07

Ryan,<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...how the swing keel boats sail/handle compared to fixed keel boats of similar size?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The C-25 swing keel draws at least 5' keel down. The boat is spec'd to displace 4,100# or something like that. I think the swing keel C-25s would all tip the scales above 5,000# in the real world. The iron keel itself weighs around 1,500# and that weight is biased towards the bottom of the keel, similar to a bulb, but not as pronounced. The bottom of the hull is fairly flat. There is little deadrise and not much radius in the chine area where the bottom meets the topsides (without actually being a hard chine design). All of which adds up to the C-25 being rather stiff for a 5,000#, 25' boat with around 30% ballast.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...is there anything particular about the trailer or can any sailboat ready trailer be used?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">A trailer suitable for a swing keel C-25 has several characteristics:<ul><li>4 to 5 ton gross weight rating. No, not kidding.</li>
<li>A substatial frame member of some sort (not an axle) to support the weight of the swing keel with the cable slack.</li>
<li>Bunks which spread the weight of the boat evenly over a large portion of the hull. Long padded wooden bunks are typically the least expensive to build or modify. Rollers (like EasyLoader) are very nice to have, but can be expensive to acquire.</li>
<li>It's very important to never rest the weight of a C-25 on the swing keel. Forward, at the pivot, I think the hull can handle a lot of force from the swing keel. Aft, near the winch, the part of the keel which contacts the hull is a pointed knife blade! (Also, there is a serious risk of damaging the lifting cable attachment if the swing keel is forced all the way up with any slack in the cable.)</li>
<li>Actual trailer rated (ST) tires in good condition with serious weight capacity rating.</li>
<li>Good working brakes. I prefer surge coupler activated disks, but other folks have expressed satisfaction with other types.</li>
<li>And perhaps the most noteworthy characteristic of trailer suitable for a swing keel C-25, and one you'll notice first, is they're incredibly hard to find, and stunningly expensive when you do!

</li></ul>Happy trailering!

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Ryan
Deckhand

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5 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2006 : 14:32:10

Thanks for all the advice. The boat has spent it's life in an inland freshwater lake and I will sail it in another large freshwater lake. I would plan on replacing all keel parts this winter just for my peice of mind, regardless of ther apperance. Are there any of Catalina Direct's upgrades that yo all would reccomend looking at?

I have a sailboat trailer now that has adjustable full length wooden bunks for support and it is heavy enough to handle the 25, thanks for the advice!

Thanks again for all the information.

Ryan

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2006 : 17:46:13

"...are there any of Catalina Direct's upgrades..."

Here's my 'essential' list. (these are all from Catalina Direct)

Spreader sockets: Replace older cast aluminum (corrosion failures known) with stainless steel set.
Upgraded Rudder Gudgeons: Heavier construction with nylon inserts.
Swing keel cable attachment. (Improved, as previously mentioned)
Forestay Stem Fitting with additional reinforcement/attachment.

Optional List: (stuff from Catalina Direct and elsewhere...)

All line halyards (replace wire/rope splice)
Split adjustible backstay (if you don't have one).
Replace stainless closed turnbuckles with bronze open style (no seizing!)
Upgrade Bow/Stern & Steaming lights.
Upgrade traveller. (Articles/threads online here)
All lines led aft.
Etc...

That will keep you busy for awhile.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2006 : 22:52:20

Welcome to the group Ryan.
I have a 1981 Swing Keel, Standard Rig. I bought mine less than two years ago and haven't made any modifications other than doing a complete bottom job. (remove and replace paint)
We consistently get complimented on our boat and we really like this boat, so I doubt we will make any major modifications.
The Swing keel was definitely the right choice for us. We've had some minor situations with running aground and every time so far, the swing keel has gotten us out of trouble quickly.
I'd rate the swing keel's ability to point and hold a course with any of the boats on our lake. We regularily win races (our first year racing & our second year sailing) and I credit these wins to the boat, not the driver.
We've sailed on the ocean and at several lakes. Launching, retrieving and handling the mast are a manageable task for us.
If you buy, hire a capable surveyor after you've read the old threads related to your issues.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2006 : 13:29:54

I think Clam inadvertantly left one thing off his "essential" list... Use the search function and check the archives for threads on "to-hull" fittings. This is where Catalina, in the early years of the C-25, installed the under-waterline drains by making a hole in the hull and epoxying a bronze pipe into it, with an epoxy "mushroom" around the pipe on the inside an nothing but the hole visible on the outside. People have found this to be a precarious installation--some, when removing and replacing with true "thru-hull" fittings (bronze mushrooms on the outside) found that the to-hull pipes practically lifted out in their hands.

But as I said, there are (or were) numerous threads on this subject, and I didn't have to deal with it on the '85.

Edited by - on

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2006 : 15:03:32

I bought my swing keel for the shallow Potomac River. It's been ideal for that. However, I worry about the catastrophic damage that could result from a broken keel pin or cable. I would not buy another swinger because of the peace of mind issue.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2006 : 20:23:15

I completely disagree about the stability comparison expressed above, I feel the fin is a more stable boat and safer in a blow. The fins win on our lake.

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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2006 : 21:11:57

Bruce - This is my first year w/ a S/K. I intend to change the cable this winter. The PO changed it 2 years ago. I'm in salt water too, but am counting on regular maintenance to ease the concern of failure. What causes you to be concerned?
Jerry

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2006 : 21:13:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Bruce Baker
 I bought my swing keel for the shallow Potomac River. It's been ideal for that. However, I worry about the catastrophic damage that could result from a broken keel pin or cable. I would not buy another swinger because of the peace of mind issue.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Time for a conversion?

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2006 : 00:00:39

As the owner of a Swing Keel....I'd like to know just how many cable (and/or related hardware) failures there have been on C25's & C22's and all the other kinds of boats that have swing keels.
Wouldn't swing keel failure be about as likely as standing rigging failure?
I use the swing keel mechanism when I launch and retrieve, 2 - 5 times a year and those very very rare times when I run aground (okay 2 -5 times a year

)My keel hardware is in as good of condition as my rigging. Unlike my rigging, the keel cable has no tension on it most of the year.
I hear lots of stories about rigging failure, and stories about keels coming off fin keel boats yet that doesn't generate the same kind of fear and speculation.
Seems to me that if you have the *right conditions for a swing keel, you should be as confident in it as you would in your rigging.

*keel in full down position while in the water, properly maintained, zincs in salt.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2006 : 08:13:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 I hear lots of stories about rigging failure, and stories about keels coming off fin keel boats yet that doesn't generate the same kind of fear and speculation.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm sure it happens, but other than those ocean racers, I've never heard of a fin keel failing off a recreational sailboat so I'd imagine it is a very, very rare occurence.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2006 : 10:36:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 As the owner of a Swing Keel....I'd like to know just how many cable (and/or related hardware) failures there have been on C25's...
Wouldn't swing keel failure be about as likely as standing rigging failure?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Val Bisagni (tinob) might want to jump in here--I think his boat sank twice from keel-drops before he converted to a wing. His has always been in salt water, which complicates everything. He hasn't reported having his mast come down...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/01/2006 10:49:03

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2006 : 10:49:56

My concerns about my swinger are threefold:

1. The keel pin. Inspecting the pin is a major undertaking, so I have not done so. The keel does not "clunk" so I'm not really worried. Pin failure is rare, but would be catastrophic if it were to occur.

2. Attachment to keel. There's a piece of hardware where the cable attaches to the keel. I paid a high-price boat yard to replace the hardware with the CD aftermarket piece, but it looks like they did not do so. (I have several reasons to sue them--this is just one.)

3. The cable itself. Mine was replaced four years ago and looks fine (the boat is in fresh water).

At the moment, I have no immediate concerns. Even so, I wouldn't buy another swinger.

BTW, I did see a 40 footer lose her fixed keel. It happened right outside my window when I was living in Wellington, NZ. I didn't see it actually happen, but I did see the crew of 12 standing on the bottom of the upside down boat. They're really lucky to have lost their keel inside the harbor instead of in the Cook Strait.

I had previously admired the boat, but a friend had said "you don't want that boat--it's snake-bit!"

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2006 : 13:14:14

Caution: This response rates 7 of 10 on the rant scale.

There was a story about a year ago that we chatted about on this site. A skipper was sleeping while at anchor, anchor was dragging, skipper came on deck to investigate, skipper fell overboard when sailboat ran aground, the swimming skipper was caught in a current that pulled her many Kilometers (from Vancouver's west shore to one of the little islands north of Victoria in the Straight), she treaded water for 22 hours before being rescued.
About one month later, the skipper and the boat returned to the scene of the accident and had the keel fall off her boat. The original grounding weakened the structure so that the subsequent grounding caused complete failure. The boat was an insurance write-off.
A fin keel sailboat sank at my lake about 7 years ago when caught in a storm, it sank because the hatch boards were not secure. The boat has been recovered and sails nearly every day.
When asked if I would buy another swing keel boat, my answer is a qualified yes. As long as it has been properly inspected and maintained and is used in the proper setting.
If I buy a used Outboard, I won't hesitate to spend as much money as makes sense to ensure that it is reliable because having OB failure in many circumstances can result in loss of limb, life or boat.
When I bought my swing keel, I had it properly inspected, it has since been in salt for 9 months and in lakes.It has been in many situations where failure of any equipment would be dangerous.
I replaced some of my standing rigging because failure to do so would eventually result in complete mast failure, hitting skipper on his large pointy head.
I replaced dock lines because they were slightly frayed. I replaced all my bulbs and repaired some navigation lights. Failure to do so can result in law suits, injury and etc.
A swing keel is a moving part that demands respect and regular maintenance, just like every other part of a boat.
If my friend (I have one) asks me if he should buy a swing keel, I would say yes.

Edited by - on

esailor
Navigator

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USA
118 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2006 : 13:28:47

Does all this under boat swing keel maintenance need to be performed while the boat is on a crane? How high does the crane need to be able to lift the boat? I would assume high enough to lower the keel all the way?

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2006 : 13:34:11

The best time to do maintenance on the keel is while its on a crane or travel lift etc. But can also be done on a trailer.
Fully extended, the swing keel is 5'. The keel does not have to be fully down to be worked on.

Edited by - stampeder on 08/01/2006 13:35:46

Todd Frye
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2006 : 15:38:57

I have a 1986 swing keel standard rig and have gained a respect and confidence in its seaworthiness. In adding to all the comments of things to look for, I would add that the factory rudder is prone to splitting on the leading and trailing edges. This can be a good winter repair project. Or invest/build a new balanced rudder if your potential new boat hasn't already upgraded. The outboard really needs an extra long shaft to stay in the water in big chop. I still have the original Honda 7.5 and have it secured to a double spring high lift O.B.motor mount. That was one of my first upgrades and it helps a lot. Make sure it's got a swim ladder for retrieving M.O.B. as well as boat entrance after a swim on a hot day. I took a header off the dock last week while washing the boat. Turned an ankle (high school basketball injury) right on the flat dock. I didn't have access to the swim ladder because I was stern first into my slip while servicing the O.B. I really didn't think I was going to make it back on the dock. I also really like the Catalina Direct upgraded stem fitting/ anchor roller. One last item (at least on my SK), I was back in the aft quarter berth, working on the stereo, when I noticed what looked like a crack on the underside of the top step of the companionway ladder. This crack was not visible with everyday activity on the boat. Closer inspection revealed a crack from one end of the step to the other. When cranking up the keel, the crack would widen, due to the weight put on the top step. When I got to thinking of what might happen if the winch pulled free of the top step, say half way up, I ceased all sailing until this was fixed. After installing 2” aluminum angle in direct support of the top step, I feel my swing system now to be as sturdy as the rest of the boat. Todd Frye

Edited by - on

Ryan
Deckhand

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5 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2006 : 20:28:11

Thanks for all the great information. I'm still a bit concerned about the ability of the swing keel to hold up in a blow. We don't have huge waves on the lake I sail on, but sudden storms do come up often and the boat will have to be able to ride them out safely. I see that quite a few of you are costal and Great Lakes sailors, so I suppose if the swinger is up to the sudden foul conditions you see, a medium sized (56k acres) inland lake shouldn't be to much of a stretch.

One thin I noticed is this boat doesn't have the bilge access panels in the floor of the cabin like I have seen in some of the pictures on this site. The interior is the style with the dinette table that attaches to the starboard hull. Is it common to not have bile access in this interior except for the panels under the various lazzerettes? Thanks again for all the help. The boat I am looking out is in super shape with a good sail inventory and a lot of the recommended upgrades this site talks about done by the previous owner. If I can get past the lack of a fixed keel, she looks to be a great opportunity!

Edited by - Ryan on 08/04/2006 20:31:06

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2006 : 01:35:30

I have enjoyed all the sharing of the SK and I should share my experiences. Have had my C25 since 79. We knew when it came out of the mold and it was delivered to our door 2 months later. I have raced and cruised all these years and have enjoyed it all. It is a tall rig with all North sails. The boat has performed well in racing with being the boat to beat. We have taken 3 knockdowns, 2 with spinaker and one with the 155 in different races and still kept our first place. We did have the oldest crew in most races, 5 with spinaker, and I believe had the most fun. We can out point most boats and still keep our boat speed. I have had the keel off the boat 3 times for maintenance as the original bondo falls off after 5 weeks in salt water. I inspect and have replaced the keel cable once while it is on the trailer and have installed the upgrades from CD for the keel. I use carpet glued to the keel for reducing the side play, C22 showed us this in Mainsheet before there was a Forum. Going aground is not a big problem with the SK. I do check the pin and bolts each season and have used Permatex #2 on the bolts and pin and never have had a problem of removing and checking. Permatex is before the other loc-tights were available. The boat sat on a fresh water mooring for twenty years and now is in a slip. Well, hope this shows my satisfaction with the SK and it's use. Launches in 30 inches of water, roller trailer, and without an extension, loading is the same.

Edited by - on

Steve Siefken
1st Mate

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USA
81 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2006 : 06:50:02

Jim,

Thanks for sharing your experience with the swing keel. We bought our boat a little over a year ago, and I have been wondering about SK maintenance. I had the boat surveyed when I bought it, and he said it was is in good shape. I don't know the PO as I bought from a broker, but I suspect the boat spent a lot of time on the trailer.

I have spent some time reviewing the archives and my conclusion is that most folks replace a most if not all SK parts frequently (every year or every other year or so.) While this may be a good idea (and in fact I am thinking about doing this too), it is good to hear the SK is as robust as you have described.

BTW, I am currently moored in Lake Union in Seattle, but I am on a waiting list for moorage for Bellingham. Hope to see you cruising the San Juans soon!

Thanks again for sharing,

Edited by - on

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