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Motor Size Overkill?

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LeighMarie
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USA
188 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/12/2002 : 22:10:54

I am replacing my 17 year old Honda 10 hp on my 1985 SW C25. To make a long, long story short I am trying to get an XL (extra long) shaft on a Honda 9.9, but there are apparently none in the country and Honda has no production date for the 2003 models. However, I can get a 15 hp XL shaft. Both are 4 stroke. Is 15 hp too much, or is it not a big deal to have a motor that size? I think 9.9 would be ideal, but I won't be able to get one probably until maybe August. Do any of you out there have a 15 hp motor? Thanks!

Dave & Sharon on "Leigh-Marie"
Hull #5128

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Don Hood
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 06/12/2002 : 22:23:21

The only concern as I understand it would be the extra weight. Check your transom and mount to make sure it would stand the stress. The hull speed would prevent you from any added horsepower advantage.

Don on Namaste' #1929 swk

Edited by - on

Rick Heaverly 86 C25 5382
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Belize
206 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2002 : 07:56:33

Does the 8hp come in x-long? I belive the 8 & the 9.9 is virtually the same powerplant. Dave Bristle will probably respond to this when he returns.

Rick Heaverly
"Invictus"

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/13/2002 : 08:45:16

Yes, the 8 comes in an xls model and is identical to the 9.9 except that it is throttle restricted. On the c250, full throttle with an 8 is never needed...

So, this gives you the option of keeping a couple of boat units in your pocket and basically having the same motor.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/13/2002 : 09:17:31

Someone commented a few threads back that they reach maximum hull speed at 1/2 to 3/4 throttle with a 9.9 HP.
Another factor is high-thrust props. I'm not sure what Honda offers.
Water currents (or lack thereof) is another factor.

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f_sondergaard
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Response Posted - 06/13/2002 : 10:14:21

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I am replacing my 17 year old Honda 10 hp on my 1985 SW C25. To make a long, long story short I am trying to get an XL (extra long) shaft on a Honda 9.9, but there are apparently none in the country and Honda has no production date for the 2003 models. However, I can get a 15 hp XL shaft. Both are 4 stroke. Is 15 hp too much, or is it not a big deal to have a motor that size? I think 9.9 would be ideal, but I won't be able to get one probably until maybe August. Do any of you out there have a 15 hp motor? Thanks!

Dave & Sharon on "Leigh-Marie"
Hull #5128
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

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LeighMarie
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188 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2002 : 10:17:47

It sounds like a 15 hp is probably overkill, but I just don't feel comfortable going with an 8 hp. They will be installing a high-thrust prop on it like the 9.9 power-thrust. I guess I'm still going to go with the 15 hp as I need a dependable motor and really want to go with Honda. It seems crazy that there are no 9.9's out there. I even had a different dealer check for me and he came up with the same information. People will probably look at my boat with the 15 hp and shake their heads at me, but I guess that's just how it goes.

Dave & Sharon on "Leigh-Marie"
Hull #5128

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f_sondergaard
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Response Posted - 06/13/2002 : 10:19:37

We have a 15hp Honda 4-stroke that is a 2000 model with a XL shaft. We were concerned about the weight also, butin comparing some of the 9.9 motors with XL shaft the weight was about the same! We did put on the heavier duty motor mount. Our Honda is doing ok and has been on our boat for about a year.

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joshuaheard
Deckhand

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22 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2002 : 12:19:30

I talked to Catalina before buying my outboard. Catalina recommends a 9.9. I asked about a larger motor. Catalina said you will not get any more speed out of a bigger engine and it will add more weight.

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LeighMarie
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188 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2002 : 13:05:02

Thanks for the encouragement, f_sondergaard! The specs on the 9.9 and the 15 are less than 15 pounds difference. The 15 hp is now the same weight as the motor I just took off, so it's not any different there. I know the extra hp won't necessarily help, but it's better to have that extra vs. going down to the 8 (sorry to those of you who have an 8!). But, it's good to hear that someone else has one like this and that it has worked fine. In the big scheme of things, I'l forget about all the details a month after I have it on and I'll just know that when I need to get somewhere that it will work.

Dave & Sharon on "Leigh-Marie"
Hull #5128

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2002 : 13:38:43

Another consideration on 8 vs 15... The 8 comes with the new Power Thrust gearing and larger diameter 4-blade prop, which is designed specifically for pushing heavy displacement hulls. The 15, being Honda's older design, does not to my knowledge offer that feature. I've been told by owners that it makes a huge difference--we'll find out this weekend. (My boat just splashed.) From what I hear, in a tug of war between a Power Thrust 8 and a standard prop 15, the 8 would pull the 15 backwards through the water. However, the 15 will make an inflatable go much faster--that's what it's designed for.

Also, the new 8 has automatic choke, the 15 doesn't. But the specs I've seen show them both weighing in at 108 for the XLS electric start model. (The new 8 is heavier than its predecessor.)

You won't be making a mistake with either engine.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/13/2002 15:03:34

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John Mason
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687 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2002 : 14:09:29

I have an older 7.5 hp Honda 4-stroke and it is more than enough to handle any conditions I've come across so far (Puget Sound and some pretty choppy days). I rarely run it even to half throttle.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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RichardG
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990 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2002 : 14:36:25

I (and many others) feel my old Suzuki 6-hp has sufficient power. Given that, plus Dave's analysis, I would think the Honda 8 is the better choice.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

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f_sondergaard
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92 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2002 : 14:56:52

Dave and Sharon- the 15Honda has come in handy backing in strong currents! We have a lot more control than we did with our old Johnson 8. We intended on buying a 9.9, but we came across this 15 that had been in this guys shop for a year and he was ready to sell it at a great price!! So, we did a little research on the weights and got the new bracket. So far there is no sign of anything bad going on in the back of the boat! We like the electric start and the pull start feature on this motor. We had been told that some new motors don't have a pull start rigged up! Happy sailing!!

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jellyfish
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171 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2002 : 16:17:55

we have a 8hp Johnson, which is a replacement for 9.9 yamaha 4 stroker. I bought the 8 mostly because of the weight, not on the boat but on me! I can tie off the motor for safety and reach over the stern and pick it up all by my little self. there are times when I wished I had a tad more power but, not too often. we do just fine with the little 8.

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Douglas
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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2002 : 17:16:08

I had a 1985 Honda 10 Hp. It was stolen. I replaced it with a 1999 8Hp and I cant tell the diferance speed wise. I think the newer 8 has as much thrust as the old 10. What about an 8.

Doug&Ruth
Wind Lass
Tacoma Wa.

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Gary B.
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969 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2002 : 01:56:14

I tried the Honda 8 LS on Encore! about 3 summers back. It worked just fine in flat water, but when things got ROUGH, it wouldn't stay in the water! When my wife (petite) went on the bow to pull the anchor (do I train 'em, or what?) and I watched from the dink, the water intake on the Honda lifted out!

I went back to the heavy, extra-long, electric start Yamaha. It IS overkill..it was me saying "Hull speed at 1/2 to 2/3 throttle and 7+ knots wide open". I am a believer....with river and tidal currents to worry about.

BTW: a friend's 2 stroke Nissan 8 is a fine, light engine, but is at least a knot slower....Depends on where you sail/motor, I think...

Gary B. Encore! #685

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LeighMarie
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188 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2002 : 09:17:38

I hate to continue the saga (and a saga it is!), but the marine store where I'm attempting to get a new motor I feel is just absolutely incompetent in selling/installing a motor for a sailboat! Are we and our sailboats such strange ducks that noone understands the challenges of a sailboat and motor? They intially measured my boat for a longshaft (not the extra long shaft) and said it would work fine. They then took my bracket off (which was what they measured from) and put their bracket on (to the tune of $270 plus installation) which has a travel of 6 inches less and scratched their heads as to why the motor was too short.

I finally brought my old bracket back to them yesterday and we compared them. Now they understand why theirs didn't work. They are putting my old bracket back on, which is a Garelick extra heavy duty one, and we're going to look at it tonight. Of course they are saying that they would need me to sign a waiver saying we didn't want to go with theirs in case it fell off or something - to cover their rear ends. But the long and short of it is that I will then be able to get the 9.9 Power Thruster which I think is the best for it. I hope it all works.

Dave & Sharon on "Leigh-Marie"
Hull #5128

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coldducks
Captain

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USA
342 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2002 : 09:28:13

we have the 9.9 and it works fine. but when whe bought this boat (new) the "DEALER", yes a catalina dealer, told us to buy the long shaft. it wasnt until we got the boat that we got the OWNERS MANUAL, which suggested the extra long shaft. the long shaft is ok, but in hindesight, we would have bought the extra long. especially in rough seas. live and learn.. good luck with your new installation.

COLDDUCKS
FANTASY #409 C250WK

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jimbo747
Deckhand

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13 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2002 : 09:44:31

I have a 9.9hp also. Mine is the standard long shaft, rather than the extra long. In the rough chop where i normally sail, this meant the prop spending more time with the birds than with the fish, but rather than spend the money on a new outboard, i simply moved the mount down about 6 inches (also reinforced it with a piece of 2" ply).

Here in the UK, where there are sometimes strong tides, and particularly as i am up a narrow river, inboards have definite advantages though.

Personally i hate engines.....always waiting for it to cut out.

Jimbo
J25 "Dream Weaver"
Fareham Creek
Hampshire, England.

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Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2002 : 10:12:41

I think others have been down this road, but I didn't follow the thread. In 1985, when I first went with the Yamaha 9.9, I got a new bracket for Encore! I went through the (then) Catalina dealer in Portland, OR. I THINK it is an OMC, but it doesn't seem to be marked anywhere. This is a GREAT mount, IMHO, with sufficient strength that I trailer with OB on (tied up to stern pulpit to take weight/bounce off the bracket). It has sufficient lift so that the engine is out of the water when tipped up, except a bit of drag on a starboard tack, beating. I never have had to lower it to the lowest position to keep this EXL shaft in the water. The springs help raise this 108 # engine without too much effort. It's stainless and cost $125 back then. Why the heck is no one evidently building this bracket anymore? Anybody know? If it's no longer Patent Protected (my guess), maybe some bright entrepeneur (sp?) should start building them. With as much trouble as hundreds (maybe thousands of us) are having, somebody could make a buck or two with these....What's up? Anybody have an answer???

Gary B. Encore! SK/SR #685

Edited by - on

POP
Deckhand

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6 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2002 : 15:01:10

I've ordered a new outboard motor mount from Catalina Direct (4 week delivery) for my new 8hp, 108 lb Honda. After reading this thread I'm wondering if it will be Heavy Duty enough to take the extra weight and thrust. I haven't mounted the new motor on the old mount, it only has one spring and has a few extra bends in it, and I'm pretty sure it would bind up when I tried to lift it. If I were to need an extra heavy duty mount, who sells them?

Mike, SecondWind 4932 FK/TR

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2002 : 15:26:44

Mike,
Dave Bristle (see his contribution above) has a lot of experience with proper mounting of the Honda 8 hp.
In the event he doesn't revisit this thread you could e-mail him (click on his profile.) I'm sure he'd be happy to help flatten the learning curve on this topic.
See my new post (dd 18-Jun-02) titled Four Stroke Motor Bracket under the General Forum.

Edited by - OJ on 06/18/2002 16:19:16

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2002 : 16:45:28

Mike: CD's bracket is built by Garhauer, and is essentially the same as the original tubular stainless unit except for the stainless-backed Starboard (plastic) mounting board in place of the plywood board. CD and Garhauer both told me it was suitable for high-thrust 4-strokes, and I've read of people putting 4-strokes on the old factory mounts, so I won't argue the point. At something like 17", it also has about the most vertical travel you can get. And it will use your current holes in the transom--always a good thing.

I chose Fulton's 1810 cast aluminum unit, which was the first choice of Practical Sailor a while back. It's just like their 1820 and similar to Garelick's 7090, both in the West catalog, but it has more vertical travel than either of those--about 13" rather than about 9. However, it requires something to hold it a few inches away from the transom--a 2-3" of Starboard could do it. I bought Fulton's 5" extensions (for too much money) and am pleased with the result. My XLS Honda 8 clears the water on the first tilt position with the bracket up, and sits almost too far down on the bracket's lowest position--no chance of cavitation in big waves. (I tested it going over a huge wake from a close pass by a Coast Guard boat last weekend--almost catapulted me out of the cockpit!)

I backed my bracket, both inside and outside of the hull, with 1/2" Starboard. I also mounted the bracket above the quarterberth ledge, so the bolts go through both the hull and the liner where it's cored with high-density foam. My setup is probably ready for a 50 hp engine--I could try racing Mac 26Xs! <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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POP
Deckhand

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6 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2002 : 20:14:34

Dave, thanks for repeating your reply (I found the other postings, after I had asked the question). I'll read further ahead from now on.
I think I understood all of your reasoning, just 2 questions I'm not clear on. The "ledge" inside the quarterberth. Would that be the surface that the cushions lay on? Could you equate that distance to inches down from the rubrail (I'm famous for drilling holes in the wrong spot)?
And secondly what kind of board is starboard, other than the 'Right' kind.

Mike - 1985 #4932 TR/FK SecondWind

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2002 : 20:49:36

Mike: In our '85, there's a small ledge against the inside of the transom in the quarterberth (or aft berth) area. Below the ledge, the liner is 6-8" away from the transom; above the ledge, it's against the transom (with a foam core between them). The previous owner had mounted a bracket (not suitable for a 4-stroke) above the ledge, and I did the same. I suspect that the factory bracket is mounted there. Older models that have the bracket on the port side probably don't have the advantage of two fiberglass layers with a core. But if you need to use that side, you can back the bracket on both sides to strengthen it for the heavy load, extra leverage, and greater torque.

Starboard is a plastic material (search for King Starboard on the Web) that is sold by West Marine, Boat US, and others. It can be worked with normal woodworking tools, stands up to UV, and is a very good alternative to wood for most things--unless you want it to look like wood! I cut it with my circular saw, shaped it with a sander, and then drilled it with a regular wood bit. The end result (on the outside of the transom) looks like Catalina built the boat that way. I'll try to remember to get some digital pics this weekend, but don't count on my memory... <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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