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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

rudder too long?

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new sailor
1st Mate

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USA
38 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/11/2006 : 23:01:02

While anchoring just off of an island in shallow water (about 3 feet) I noticed that the rudder was pounding the gudgeons each time the boat would come down from the small waves. My thoughts were that the winged keel should plant into the soft mud well before the rudder was affected.

Almost back to the inlet, we hit a wreck at about four knots. We were able to pivot off the the submerged obstructuction but again the rudder seemed as it took more of the brunt of the collision than it should have.

My thoughts are that a previous owner may have substituted the original rudder with a longer one meant for a fixed keel or swing keel model. Is this possible? If so, would simply cutting the rudder I have down to size be an acceptable fix?

I plan on having the boat hauled out to inspect for damage. My hopes are just to find some scratches on the bottom paint and maybe some slight gouges into the gel coat. However, with a collision at five knots can I expect anything worse? Perhaps a crack in the gel coat where the keel attaches to the hull?

Here is a picture of her on the lift. Just by looking, can anyone tell if the wrong rudder is installed?

Former owner of a 1989 C25 WK/SR #5862
Clear Lake, TX (near Houston)

http://www.myspace.com/a_boat_called_lafawnduh

Edited by - new sailor on 10/02/2007 11:06:40

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2006 : 23:21:49

You've got the correct rudder, correctly installed.
The rudder is easily pulled up and off its gudgeons - if my rudder were touching bottom, I'd pull it off prior to motoring.

A 5,000LB boat hitting an immovable object can do a lot of damage at 5 knots. Hauling it to check for damage is probably the right thing to do...although you could dive under the boat and get a good idea fairly quickly.

Edited by - on

John P
Captain

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USA
324 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2006 : 23:26:33

I hit a concrete nava bouoy anchor last summer at 4.5 knots. It split the glassing on the keel about 6" above and below the point of impact.

Good Luck!!!!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 07:57:26

The problem is not with the rudder.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 08:11:58

Well said Frank. To put words to your thought, the lesson learned should be that anchoring and/or opereating a boat with a 2'11" draft in 3' of water is asking for trouble. Prudent use of a chart and depth sounder is important for the safety of the boat and crew.

Nice boat though. Looks very much like my 88 TR/WK.

Edited by - aeckhart on 09/12/2006 08:13:12

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 10:52:38

With silting and water level changes at my marina sometimes leaving little water between me and the lake bottom, I take some comfort in knowing that my deeper fin keel will scrape bottom before my relatively fragile rudder.

Edited by - on

roktabija@yahoo.com
Deckhand

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20 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 11:53:16

Take a look at the kick-up rudder for the C25 from Catalina Direct, you could probably rig it so it will kick up on impact and soften the blow.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 12:05:51

We have a novice Catalina 22 sailor giving our Wednesday night races a go. He is having a really hard time keeping it together but comes out every week anyway; he is admired for that. Two weeks ago he got to the boat and there was water inside, we had a lot of rain and he chalked it up to weather. Several full trash cans later the water was bailed and he was on his way to the line. Last week he showed up and the water was back. I asked him if he had any swing keel accidents, he said no. His young female crew said "we run aground a lot", I assured her that was no big deal on our silt. 3-4 trash cans later and he felt he had located the problem, there was water intruding from around the keel trunk but it seemed to be related to the keel lock down pin. 22s have a bolt you can put in to lock down the keel to prevent swing keels from doing hull damage in serious knock downs. This poor fellow had been told by some Good Samaritan to be sure to lock his keel down every time he sails. That was poor advice; the "harmless groundings" have indeed caused damage to the keel trunk. When told by someone that people usually do not use the SS bolt Catalina provides but a wooden dowel he immediately grasp the reasoning.

If I were concerned about my rudder grounding a lot I would have a safety line from the stern rail to the rudder head and replace the cotter with plastic or less. At my marina when water levels are down it is backing out of a slip that is the most dangerous grounding exposure. Our water is down, I should take my cotter out!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2006 : 13:05:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by roktabija@yahoo.com
 Take a look at the kick-up rudder for the C25 from Catalina Direct, you could probably rig it so it will kick up on impact and soften the blow.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
My CD hanbook went to Passage's new owners, but as I recall, their new kick-up rudder has a plastic shear-pin that keeps the rudder down until it hits something. They also sell additional pins... If I had a wing keel, I think I'd want that rudder.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2007 : 18:34:00

Colby--you did an edit to your original post... Any news?

BTW, some observations: You shouldn't cut that rudder off unless you're prepared to do some glass work--it's a fiberglass shell over a foam core. And you'd have some "rounding up" problems as the rudder loses its bite when heeling. Also, the cotter pin needs to stay in--that rudder will float off the gudgeons.

If I had a wing, I'd seriously consider the IDA kickup rudder. The plastic shear-pin is intended for forward-motion contact--I doubt it will help if the boat is moored, pitching up and down, and the rudder is hitting bottom, but you can lift the rudder when you're on the hook. As said above, you should give yourself a little more margin when anchoring, but sh!t happens.

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2007 : 23:08:13

Hey I had my second run aground last month. The water leval in our lake was down about 2.5 feet in our ususlly constant lake and I forgot this as I was coming to our slip. That iron Gennie sure comes in handy sometimes.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2007 : 09:01:49

I've also noticed the rudder hitting before the wing and agree the only thing to do is buy that kick-up. It ain't cheap though!!

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2007 : 15:58:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Frank Hopper
 The problem is not with the rudder.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">yeah, what he said. our wings are too short. I mean the wing keel is too shallow.

speaking of which, could a rudder deeper than the keel (or at least comparable) cause lee helm by moving the "Center of Lateral Resistance" too far behind the "Center of Effort"? Especially when trying to claw your way uphill?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2007 : 20:38:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ilnadi
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Frank Hopper
 The problem is not with the rudder.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">yeah, what he said. our wings are too short. I mean the wing keel is too shallow...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ummmm... I don't think that's what he meant was inadequate...

Edited by - on

Cate
Navigator

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199 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2007 : 12:33:23

We bought an Idasailor kick-up this summer from sailboatowners.com. About $820 with shipping. Rudders were back ordered, but we were lucky to snag one that had just been cancelled from a buyer. Our experience has been excellent with this rudder in our shallow bay. We pull it up at dock and anchor so it is completely out of the water. When we hit bottom once it kicked up slightly and then returned to the full down position due to the gas struts. The air foil design has made steering much better. Excellent product. Excellent design.

Edited by - on

EAbrams
Navigator

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USA
130 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2007 : 06:23:30

Reading this post has made me worried now. I've bumped a few times last year (sand) but alway thought I was hitting the keel.

It hasn't been mentioned yet, so I'm guessing no one knows the answer to my question, but.. Is there a reason the rudder is slightly longer than the wing keel?

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2007 : 07:23:27

I also bumped slightly a couple of times last summer, inspected my rudder later to find no damage. As long as it wasn't a hard bump you're probably fine. Easy to inspect though. As to why it's longer, I'm guessing two reasons. The rudder needs to have a certain length to stay in the water with significant heel, and Catalina probably didn't want to spend the money to redesign.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2007 : 07:44:35

I think the idea to replace the SS cotter Pin with a sacrificial one is a genuine advance in rigging our boat. It does beg a safety line but with hightech lines that is easy. One thing that is nice for we wingers is we have balanced rudders which will not lift off unless hard over and they weigh significantly less than older models. In fact, with a balanced rudder I would bet the hit is transfered to the skeg rather than the gudgeons.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2007 : 08:05:37

This past season, both a friend and a coworker, one with a C25 the other with a Cal 24, each with 4ft fin keels, found the boulder that lives just inside the first and second green marina channel markers (I found it a few seasons ago). My coworker's grounding was more of a glancing blow, but my friend with the C25 hit so hard with the keel the boat stopped dead in its tracks as the bow descended and the transom lifted.

Fortunately, no one suffered any real damage, but if their rudders had taken the brunt of the blow, I'm reasonably sure their rudders would have been immediately ripped from the transom...Not good!

I've said it before, I take comfort in knowing my deeper fin keel will more likely hit something before my slightly more shallower rudder. You know, with a wing keel's rudder projecting below the keel, I'd be inclined to sail/motor/anchor in water deeper than I would with my fin keel. Sort of defeats the purpose of the shoal draft though...

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2007 : 09:06:49

Certainly on a grounding while under way the gudgeons will take the hit and repairing the ensuing damage will be a hassle but manageable. Most of this thread has been talking about bumps, while not underway or at dead slow speeds. Also bear in mind that the wing is 2" deeper than a retracted swinger, so I stand by my wing as the best shallow draft boat, (although realistically the 4' fin is also a shallow draft boat and the best config of all). I think the rudder issue is also exacerbated by crew weight in the cockpit.
Now a boulder is a pisser at any speed, we mud hole sailors are very lucky, we have an honest 6-8 inches of pudding like silt that we "sense" before we even get to the mud.

Edited by - on

EAbrams
Navigator

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USA
130 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2007 : 11:09:25

Dave that was my thought. Catalina made one rudder for all three keel types.

Ok Frank, I'm more confused now than before.....

Balanced rudder.. Skeg

Just got back from Catalina Direct web site. I was reading about the "upgraded" rudders. The sales pitch led me to believe we had unbalanced rudders. Mostly because it made reference to the new balanced rudder being better than unbalanced. I just read your post that we have balanced rudders.

Skeg. did a quick search cuz I had no clue what a skeg was. Now I know it is a small keg of beer ;-)

However the picture I found depicting the skeg showed it covering the full length of the rudder. My boat does not have anything like that. Is that small extended keel considered a skeg? It looks like it only extends down less than foot in front of the rudder. Did you mean that the rudder would hit that before the cotter pin hit the grudgeon?

Finally about a safety line :-) I found out the hard way ( another newbie mistake) After inserting my rudder in the grudgeons for the first time. I went to look for a cotter pin. Who knew the rudder would not stay straight. Good thing I bought a boat hook.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2007 : 11:19:55

The skeg Frank's referring to on the C25, is that fin like appendage on the hull that extends forward from the stern about 3-4'.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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USA
4312 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2007 : 11:55:24

Don,

Did you friend with the C25 have any damage? How fast was he going when he hit?

Thanks,
Gary

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2007 : 12:17:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 Don,

Did you friend with the C25 have any damage? How fast was he going when he hit?

Thanks,
Gary
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Gary,

He just pulled out this past week and I haven't seen his boat yet, but I'd imagine he'll have a little cosmetic work to do on the bottom leading edge of the keel. I had to do a similar repair when I hit that boulder a few years ago.

My only unplanned grounding happened early this past season when I ran up on a silty shoal with five guests aboard, full sail, close reaching in a good breeze. After I came to a full stop, I used the motor to rotate the boat 180, then with the sails, motor, and a little manual rocking, I got back to open water in a few minutes.

My next planned grounding is next week when I haul out.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4312 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2007 : 13:12:04

Don,

So your grounding didn't cause any major structural damage?

Gary

Edited by - GaryB on 10/05/2007 13:12:25

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2007 : 13:27:41

Nah...just needed to patch the battle wounds on the lower leading edge of the keel.

Edited by - on

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