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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Can you steer your boat without a rudder

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/27/2006 : 20:22:59

Hi All, I was talking to a group of single handed long distance sailors and we got on the subject of balanced sails. It was an interesting discussion. All of them really did not understand balanced sails until they started racing long distances with autotillers. If their sails were not balanced, that is if they let go the rudder the boat would generally head up wind or fall off, there auto tillers would burn themselfs out in one to two races.....these are 80 hour races so they depend on their auto tillers. The jist of it is that when you can steer straight without your rudder, the sails are balanced and thus not too hard on the autotiller. So if you sheet in the jib and let out the main, the boat will head upwind, if you let out the jib and sheet in the main, the boat will fall off. I tried it for several hours the other day and ended up being able to just keep a heading. It was fun though and something to do. Cheers.

Dennis
No Boat
S.E. Michigan

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britinusa
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USA
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Response Posted - 09/27/2006 : 20:30:46

My very first 'own boat' in England was a 16' sloop with a cubby cabin (ok for 2 nights, then literally a pain in the neck)
I could set the sails on old plod and then go stand on the bow. Then I could steer simply by shifting my weight from one side to the other.

Didn't have a clue about 'balanced sails' back then.
Now with JD, we are having to figure it out .. CLR, CE, etc. and it is fun.
On our last trip we got the boat trimmed to the point where the steering was really light, in fact the biggest issue was the slop in the Edson steering system. Looking forward to our next trip.

paul

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jerlim
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Response Posted - 09/27/2006 : 20:41:00

Dennis - this is my first season w/ a large boat, I've done A LOT of reading, many books and mags, no where have I seen as succinct a sumary for balancing the boat. Many Thanks!!
Jerry

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2006 : 21:14:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by djn
 ...So if you sheet in the jib and let out the main, the boat will head upwind, if you let out the jib and sheet in the main, the boat will fall off...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Don't you mean the other way around? It's a simple issue of the position of the center of effort (from the sails) forward or aft of the center of lateral resistance (mostly from the keel). Forward CE causes falling off (lee helm) and aft means heading up (weather helm).

I, for one, recommend that a rig be set to produce a small amount of weather helm when sailed with normal trim. I say that for safety's sake--so that letting go of the tiller stops the boat--sort of a dead-man's switch for a sailboat. A very savvy racer (and rigger) once told me that a little weather helm actually makes a boat faster--I have my own theory on why that might be true, having to do with the angle of attack of the keel "stiffening" the boat.

Anyway, I prefer to know that when the helm is released, the boat will eventually stop. That doesn't mean that I would want so much weather helm that an autopilot would be overtaxed--I think that's unnecessary. When I had Passage, the tiller took one finger in most winds, but when released, she'd head up. When I first bought her, she had lee helm--a bad situation IMHO--and I had to have the backstay shortened to be able to correct it.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/27/2006 21:18:22

Derek Crawford
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3323 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2006 : 22:28:14

Dave is correct - easing the main makes the boat fall off (you can't get around the weather mark without easing the main even with full rudder!) I'm told that it is possible to sail without a rudder by trimming/easing sails as necessary (although personally I've never tried it...)
Derek

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2006 : 06:50:19

Increasing the balance of the rudder would be cheaper than continualy buying new autopilots.

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Don B
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317 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2006 : 07:25:37

A few years ago I took sailing lessons in a 12 foot Bauer. During the last session we were required to sail with the rudder out of the water...needless to say it was very awkward at first but very quickly you could see the response when tightening/loosening the sheets. Eventually we were able to sail to the marks.

Haven't tried that with my Catalina but when my sails are trimmed, I often head up to the bow...I lean to the starboard and the boat goes to port...I lean to the port and the boat goes to starboard...what a rush!

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cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2006 : 07:51:14

Don,
Sounds like you are "King of the World"

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2006 : 08:15:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Don B
 ...when my sails are trimmed, I often head up to the bow...I lean to the starboard and the boat goes to port...I lean to the port and the boat goes to starboard...what a rush!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I can even do that in my little runabout--I steered for a few miles down the river yesterday without touching the wheel. It explains part (but not all) of where weather helm comes from--as the boat heels, the hull becomes an asymetric shape in the water and wants to turn up.

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takokichi
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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2006 : 08:31:11

A good friend of mine sailed his tri home from Bermuda. Lost his rudder in teh gulf stream and continued on to Maine! Steered with warps and sail strim all the way in to the face dock.

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2006 : 08:34:43

Hey Dave, yep you are right. Had it backwards. Cheers.

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SailCO26
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457 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2006 : 09:02:52

Yep, main out/jib in to fall off, jib out/main in to come up. OR shift weight P/S. Boat will turn opposite to the heel (heel P, boat will turn S).

When I first started racing the CP25 this year, most of my CP26 crew came with me. They were used to just doing WTF-ever on the 26, no big deal. The 25 is VERY weight sensitive. So after a few races with them prancing all over willy-nilly, we had a little post-race practice session. Nobody on the rudder, and balance the sails. Everybody to the P, everybody to the S. See how well we can steer the boat? Now watch this: everybody in the middle, 1 person lean S, then lean P. Wow, look at the change. NOW you see what I'm dealing with when y'all wander all over the boat. :) Now they're much more efficient at doing things w/o moving around, I get to mimize rudder travel, and reduce drag. Fast boat...

Then we had a demo about sail balance, and turning with the sails. As mentioned above, ease main when you fall off (round the ww mark) or you're gonna need a LOT of rudder (aka DRAG). And when you duck a boat, you MUST ease the main, or the boat just wont come down. That's when you hear "Down, DOWN, **DOWN**"... Crunch.

Even if you dont race, this is a GREAT skill to practice! Know your boat! You may NEED that skill someday and it'll make you a better sailor today.

Jim
#183 - Team Short Bus

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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1561 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2006 : 10:03:58

Hi Jim, I am not sure what "duck a bout" means. Cheers.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2006 : 12:32:26

Dennis,
How often do you come within a couple of feet of another sailboat? It is a natural thing to do on a lake. In racing it is not uncommon to be within a couple of feet of another boat only its the bow of your boat that is a couple of feet from the mid-beam of the other boat, and you are doing hull speed. You "duck under" the stern of the boat you were about to T-bone and continue back up to your original heading (or tack over) and off you go.

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SailCO26
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Response Posted - 09/28/2006 : 12:40:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by djn Hi Jim, I am not sure what "duck a bout" means. Cheers.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Per the COLLREGS (and adopted by the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS)), for two boats going upwind on opposite tacks, the boat on S tack has the Right-of-Way. Normally if you're just cruising it's no big deal, you'd alter course long before a collision anyway.

When racing, you want to minimize the distance you cover over the "ground", so you'd want to minimize the altered course. If you're on P tack and approaching a boat on S, he's got the RoW so you have to maneuver around him. You've got 4 choices:
1. Slow down and let him go by first (SLOW? We're racing here, there's no SLOW allowed!)
2. Hit him. (NOT recommended, worse than going SLOW)
3. Tack before you get to him (should be self-explanatory)
4. Duck him. In this case, about 1-1.5 boatlenghts away you fall off (easing the main, per this discussion) and aim for his stern. By the time you get there he'll have moved on. You'll get a slight (and very temporary) lift from the exhaust of his sails which you can use to your advantage (trim back in, pinch mode) and not really lose much ground for the "ducking" maneuver as you'd think. Trim back up on the other side to your previous close-hauled course.

The part of this that's relative to this discussion is easing the main when falling off to duck (or falling off for ANY reason sailing at ANY time, not necessarily racing). If you DON'T ease the main, what happens is the boat turns off the wind, then heels more. The additional lw heel creates a turning motion to the UP-wind, and the boat doenst want to turn down. Repeat as necessary. More rudder, more heel, more hull drag (and more rudder drag), more up-turning moment - but NO downwind turn. DOH!

Hope that helps!
Jim
#183 - Team Short Bus

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ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2006 : 12:51:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Don B
 A few years ago I took sailing lessons in a 12 foot Bauer. During the last session we were required to sail with the rudder out of the water...needless to say it was very awkward at first but very quickly you could see the response when tightening/loosening the sheets. Eventually we were able to sail to the marks.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
When we took a class we did that with J24 and a C30 (locing the rudder dead center). Just course corrections. I guess the instructor was not brave enough to have us navigate a C30 through other boats on sails alone.

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Ben - FL
Admiral

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880 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2006 : 15:23:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Don B
 ...I lean to the port and the boat goes to starboard...what a rush! <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The reason the boat turns when heeled over is that there is more of the curved surface on the lee side and more of the flat surface on the weather side in the water causing the boat to go like a "spoon." This is part of weather helm. Some of the other effects of heeling over is the center of resistance on the hull and the center of effort on the sail are offset from the plumb line and so the boat effectively "twists" itself into the wind. I know there are other factors and I am not an engineer by any stretch of the imagination. But knowing those two things has always helped me understand how the boat would behave. Theoretically you should be able to sail in reverse also. I think it has happened to me, but not on purpose.

Edited by - Ben - FL on 09/28/2006 15:27:12

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 09/28/2006 : 15:43:26

Thanks Frank.

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 09/28/2006 : 18:07:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Theoretically you should be able to sail in reverse also. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yep, that was a trick they taught us in the RN when I was a junior sailor (15 year old in the british RN.) had to sail backwards to pass the coxwains exam.

Paul.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2006 : 20:07:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ben - FL
 Theoretically you should be able to sail in reverse also. I think it has happened to me, but not on purpose.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Not just theoretically--practically! I learned to do it as a kid to get out of irons trying to tack the board-boat I built. Used it with the C-25 to brake the boat coming into a dock under sail (motor caflooey). It's certainly not a racing skill, but it's a useful one!

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 09/28/2006 : 20:29:44

One of the hot-shot J-22 guys was showing off between races by sailing backwards with a crew member leaning against the backed main. A good wind line came through and sent him base over apex into the cockpit and nearly overboard...quite enjoyable sight as he was not too popular!
Derek

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/28/2006 : 21:27:35

I like that "base over apex" Thanks Derek. Cheers

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