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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

What are the sailing and performance differences .

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/08/2006 : 16:17:20

Between the Swing, Wing, and fin keels? Cheers.

Dennis
No Boat
S.E. Michigan

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2006 : 16:24:35

As far as I can tell, the swing and fin are just about identical in their performance. The wing is a little slower, mostly because it won't point quite as high, and therefore has to sail a slightly longer distance to get around a race course.

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2006 : 16:27:40

Hi Steve, I am amazed at how high I can get my swing keel to point. I can sail, slowly, with the windex at 10 degrees off center. It has to be blowing and I would be making 6 knots on a beam, but it does sail. Cheers.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2006 : 17:21:25

the 89 wings have inboard genoa tracks to improve pointing. The majority of swings I see are in such poor corrosive condition that they do not sail well and even the well maintained ones are very rough. If you had a faired swing I think it would do well. I would pick a fin as a racer anytime.

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2006 : 18:04:35

Hi Frank, what do you mean by Inboard Tracks and Faired Swing Keel? CHeers.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2006 : 18:42:24

"faired" means smoothed and polished to maximum foil shape. My fixed keel has been faired.

In board genoa track - most the boats have the genoa track on the rail. The 89's have one on the deck several inches inside of the rail, this improves pointing. I've installed one on my 1978 Fin.

My fin outpoints the wing handily. Can't compare to swingers, they are not recommended for full time storage in salt water and we don't have any in our San Diego group.

Edited by - JimB517 on 11/08/2006 18:43:50

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2006 : 19:58:47

The swinger will go to weather better than the fixed (points better,tacks faster and has less leeway). The swinger is slower downwind. I have no experience with winged keels.
Derek

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2006 : 21:13:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by djn
 Hi Steve, I am amazed at how high I can get my swing keel to point. I can sail, slowly, with the windex at 10 degrees off center.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Dennis: Remember that when you're sailing upwind, the windex is showing you the "apparent wind" which is a combination of the actual wind direction and speed plus the direction and speed of your boat, which you could say creates its own wind by its motion. If you stopped the boat, the windex would fall off to a greater angle, indicating the "true wind." If you're making 6 knots into a 12 knot breeze, then about a third of your apparent wind is based on the movement of your boat. Also, if you're moving slowly when very close-hauled, you're probably side-slipping more. In any case, you're doing well to make a true 40 degrees through the water from the true wind (depending on wind speed)--the racers here can give you better number than I can. I've been on hot boats that, according to the windex, appeared to be sailing directly into the wind! (Of course they weren't.)

(Dead downwind, your apparent wind is the true wind minus your boat speed--which is why it can be much more uncomfortable on a hot day!)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/08/2006 21:29:43

roktabija@yahoo.com
Deckhand

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20 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2006 : 21:15:51

The races around here proved the swing was dominate upwind, slowest downwind. Fin is good upwind and down. Wing is slow upwind and a rocket ship downwind as long as it's not to choppy.

As far as swings in salt, I've had my swing in salt water full time for 16 years now. I have neglected it for the last few years so I am pulling it out for a long dry out and bottom redo.

Edited by - on

wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2006 : 14:36:41

You guys should check out the National Results for performance. In the last 7 years swingers have dominated the top finishers, especially over wings. I will admit the fins are great down wind to a certian degree, but not enough to ever make me want to trailer one to ANY race.

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2006 : 15:34:51

Do you think lifting the swing keel up on the downwind would help its performance much? Cheers.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2006 : 19:20:43

"but not enough to ever make me want to trailer one to ANY race."
Amen to that Bill! You should hear the account of our trip to Cheney...

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2006 : 19:24:29

"Do you think lifting the swing keel up on the downwind would help its performance much"
Dennis that violates the rule concerning "stability" and possibly "moving ballast". Our PHRF protocol makes swingers keep their keel locked down.
I don't have my rule book handy so cannot give you the specific rule.
BTW that's why swingers and fixed have the same rating.

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2006 : 19:28:10

Thanks Derek. Cheers.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2006 : 21:09:21

My preference for fins is based on our high winds. I find the fin more stable and therefore faster in a blow.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2006 : 21:38:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Do you think lifting the swing keel up on the downwind would help its performance much? Cheers.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">We tried it years ago, and could detect no increase in speed. Sailboats with retractable keels and daggerboards will show an increase in speed if the board is pulled out of the water, or retracted completely into a centerboard trunk, because the amount of wetted surface is reduced, and the less wetted surface you have, the less drag you have. The C25's swing keel rotates up against the bottom, but it doesn't actually retract into a keel trunk, like some boats. The difference between the amount of drag with the centerboard up and with it down is so slight that it was undetectable when we tried it.

Think about it this way. Whether the centerboard is up or down, water is moving over the same amount of keel surface area, creating drag. The only difference is that it's rotated 90 degrees.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2006 : 22:50:19

I suspect that the raised keel will produce less turbulence drag from the keel itself, but will shift the weight aft creating more hull-form drag (unless the entire crew, including the helmsman, goes up to the foredeck).

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2006 : 23:24:30

When I did my bottom job last spring, I sanded my swing keel down to bare metal then I used marine-tex to smooth out the divots and a fairly deep gouge. I didn't plan on it, but I had a lot of marine-tex left over and thought I'd give it a try. I then painted the keel along with the bottom. At the end of the season the keel looks great. the only blemishes on the keel are on the bottom leading edge where I made contact with some rocks that didn't have the good sense to get out of my way.
I am planning on fairing the keel when I do another major bottom job.
In our racing season, there was not another boat on the lake that could point better than my C25.

Edited by - on

roktabija@yahoo.com
Deckhand

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20 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2006 : 02:57:41

Dennis, Rather than trying to lift the keel downwind, try detaching the keel cable from the keel and winch it up and you will see a big speed gain.

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2006 : 05:23:25

I would have to dive under the boat to do that and am not sure if it would make that much differnce. Cheers..

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2006 : 07:08:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by roktabija@yahoo.com
 ...try detaching the keel cable from the keel and winch it up and you will see a big speed gain.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I guess there are going to be some diving masks at the '07 Nationals! To be fair, maybe there should be a new class for swingers with no strings--call it the Flexible Fin?

Edited by - on

wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2006 : 08:22:34

LAST YEAR WAS THE FIRST TIME I RACE IN THE NATIONALS WITHOUT MY WIRE ATTACHED, AND I THINK DUANE WILL TESTIFY ON MY BOAT BEING FASTER. I HAVE PERSONALLY LOST RACES BECAUSE THE WIRE WILL HOOK ONTO SEAWEED VERY EASILY AND THAT CAN BE A "DRAG" LITERALLY. AT THIS YEARS NATIONALS YOU CAN HAVE YOUR BOAT HOISTED IN, AND REMOVE THE WIRE WHILE ON THE HOIST. I DID THAT LAST YEAR AND REPLACED THE PIN WITH A QUICK REALSE PUSH PIN I BOUGHT FROM CATALINA DIRECT FOR ABOUT $20 SO THAT I CAN DIVE DOWN WITH A MASK AND QUICKLY PULL AND REPLACE THE PIN WITHOUT HAVING TO STUGGLE WITH THE SAFETY PIN. I WOULD HIGHLY RECOMMEND THAT IF YOU RACE A SWINGER THAT YOU TAKE ADVANTAGE OF REMOVING THE WIRE, AS OUR RULES ALLOW FOR THIS.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2006 : 09:30:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by wmeinert@kconline.com
 ...I HAVE PERSONALLY LOST RACES BECAUSE THE WIRE WILL HOOK ONTO SEAWEED VERY EASILY AND THAT CAN BE A "DRAG" LITERALLY...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When my keel cable collected seaweed on my old swinger, my boat would slow down so much it was like I was trying to sail with the anchor deployed. After the first time this happened, I kept a diving mask and large knife aboard for those occasions when I had to go over the side to cut a huge ball of seaweed off the cable...Not fun!

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1768 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2006 : 09:54:19

Hmmmmm ... when you disconnect the cable wire, do you retract it, or do you just let it hang loose?

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wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2006 : 11:05:03

Yes, definitly make sure to crank it inside and count the turns so will know how many to pay out when you want to reconnect.

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roktabija@yahoo.com
Deckhand

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20 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2006 : 11:55:42

Dennis, it is definately faster. I raced for several years with the cable attached and then when the class rule changed to allow removal of the cable, off it came, and the speed increase was more noticable than anything I had done.

Keep in mind, prior to the class rule change, fin keels had always won the Nationals. After the rule changed, Swings are now just as competitive as fins.

If you don't have a lot of race experience and are still making a lot of mistakes, you might not be able to tell the difference. But if you consistantly finish in the same place and distance, then you will see a big gain.

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