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cabin top hauler

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/30/2006 : 12:27:37

So many of us wish we had a cabin top traveler; but it makes no sense on our boats. I have decided to try something but I can't until my stick is back in the air. I want to put an adjustable bridle across the cabin top right at the companionway. I think that if I make the bridle out of two small vangs that I will be able to haul the boom to weather or harden it to leeward. I am sure that there will be a knack to having both vangs set right for a given location of the boom but I also figure it will be fun to use. I see and issue with the lower vang fiddles banging on the deck when not under load but stand up block springs maybe enough to hold them up, especially if a person were to use air blocks.
A lot of people use an external exit block with a cam as a head knocker on various set ups, it could be used here to move the mainsheet cleat aft. Big boats often have the mainsheet lead forward along the boom to the mast, down and back along the cabin top but that seems clumsy for a boat our size. It is possible that having the usual mainsheet fiddle at the boom will work just fine. I will need to put a bail on the boom over the companionway. Comments?

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2006 : 13:14:22

I have been experimenting with a Handy Billy. Mostly, I will use it to haul the genoa in closer to the side of the boat sorta like a twing. One end goes to bail on boom, other end to clew of headsail and the hauling end gets attached wherever handy - sometimes to a cleat in cockpit - sometimes to cabin to winches - whatever. I've thought of also using it to just control the boom half way down the foot of the main, tho I haven't really experimented with that idea much. Just a thought for you that might be easier than a permanent cumbersome block and tackle set-up.

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2006 : 15:11:30

Since I'm such a novice, the first question that comes to mind is: Why? Will that be more convenient? Safer? What's a Handy Billy?

Still learnin...........

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2006 : 15:49:48

Hi Frank, couldn't you attach your current block and sheet set up to a bail mounted above the cabin and down to a mount on the port side of the cabin top in front of your clutches, then do the same on the starboard side. You could eliminate one set of blocks from option two that way. You could run the port and starboard sheets out the bottom set of blocks back into the cockpit. Cheers.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2006 : 15:53:20

The Catalina 25 traveler is very ineffective as travelers go. The aft mainsheet location is much debated and certainly a problematic location; as all locations are. Getting the mainsheet out of the cockpit would make the boat seem larger and less frenetic while sailing with guests. A conventional traveler on the cabin top makes going below a problem, one on the seats at the companionway is probably the best but requires a fair amount of money and engineering to pull off, and some find it very intrusive there as well.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2006 : 16:04:30

The problem is to simulate the effect of a traveler on sail trim, Having two vangs working in concert can "locate" the bottom mainsheet fiddle in two planes, I don't see another way to do that with mechanical advantage other than the two small vangs.

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Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2006 : 18:01:02

The two vang system that you propose sounds like it would work, after a fashion, but it seems like a lot of macrame for not much benefit. Another discussion thread dealt with the subject of the poor traveler arrangment of the C-25 and the consensus was that, in other than racing situations, the best thing to do was to leave the traveler centered and use the boom vang to control boom lift. In racing situations the class rules require that the traveler remain on the transom.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2006 : 19:21:26

Occasionally while out on the water just cruising aimlessly around, I'll toy with different trim setups. One time I removed my vang (it has snap shackles on both ends) then clipped it between the unused windward genoa cleat and the boom. When sailing close to the wind I would trim in the vang to position the boom horizontally, then use the mainsheet to postion the boom vertically. With both of these adjustments, I could position the boom pretty much anywhere I wanted.

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2006 : 19:35:33

>"What's a Handy Billy?"

A block and tackle set... left unmounted so you can use it in different applications where you need a lot of line pull.

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boatgt
Navigator

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117 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2006 : 00:05:35

Is this what you are proposing to do?

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sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2006 : 03:41:34

Because I think that I could race I try to leave the main sheet on the traveler. This also allows me to sail with the bimini up. The vang I use is the same size blocks as the main and also a 4 to 1 which does allow me to adjust under way with much power in the vang. I have felt that I need to always quickly adjust the boom because of race situations and with the shifting winds of our mountain lake. An other suggestion is KISS and less holes.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2006 : 06:31:44

Gene, that appears to be it! I have horn cleats on each side further aft, I will test the system shackled to them.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2006 : 10:12:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> one on the seats at the companionway is probably the best but requires a fair amount of money and engineering to pull off, and some find it very intrusive there as well.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

"Fair Amount" is relative, but my modification (in the Tech Tips -- click on the bimini) was neither expensive nor difficult. Had it been either, it wouldn't have happened. I find it far less intrusive than the original mainsheet; it allows a decent bimini; the mainsheet even serves as a handhold in and out of the companionway. Since my traveler car is rarely centered, the sheet is out of the way, especially at dock/anchor.

Brooke

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2006 : 10:28:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Brooke Willson
 I find it far less intrusive than the original mainsheet...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The lee bulkhead is the best place for a little nap while under way (not for the helmsman, of course), so it would be a bit intrusive for that...

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2006 : 10:48:31

And some are concerned about tripping over it going into the salon. It is the best place for a pure sailtrim consideration because you can use a real traveler.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2006 : 10:53:17

The size and strength of the boom is predicated on the mainsheet being attached to the end. When you tension the mainsheet, the lines of force on the boom are almost directly foreward, toward the mast. Because the boom stays in column, it would be nearly impossible to break the boom with that arrangement.

If you attach the mainsheet to the middle of the boom, you'll be pulling down on the center of the boom, while the sail (especially a loose-footed mainsail) is attached to both ends of the boom, and pulling up. The mainsheet would be trying to pull the boom out of column, and I think the risk of breaking the boom would be increased.

If you attach your cabin top mainsheet to three bales situated along the boom somewhere between about 9-12" apart, it seems like it would spread the load and reduce the tendency to pull the boom out of column.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2006 : 13:52:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The lee bulkhead is the best place for a little nap while under way (not for the helmsman, of course), so it would be a bit intrusive for that...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Do you mean I'm not supposed to be asleep while at the helm? I wish someone had told me that before I bought the boat . . .

Our starboard bulkhead comfort is compromised by compass and depthfinder, so Vicki tends to nap to port. It's hard to sleep while tacking or gybing or making frequent adjustments to sail trim, so, once the course has settled down on either tack, Vicki uses her sport-a-seat with the mainsheet between it and the bulkhead. I deliberately positioned the traveler and boom bail so the sheet would just clear the bulkhead when the boom was out about 45 degrees. It works just fine for us -- and any discomfort is significantly less than no bimini or being clotheslined by a transom-mounted mainsheet.

As for loads on the boom, I can't imagine breaking the boom with the system I have. Last summer I made a twelve hour trip down the Bay with small craft warnings posted: winds 20-25, gusting to 35. I listened on the VHF to two boats sinking not far from my location. My boom was and remains straight and fine.

I've given up finding the perfect boat: as with everything else in life, we have to decide with which compromises we're willing to live . . . or sail. There are arguments for and against cabin-top, bridgedeck, mid-cockpit, and transom mounted travelers, depending on whether you want a bimini or a dodger or to sail shorthanded or use your poptop or sleep against the bulkhead or a hundred other issues. My modification meets my needs -- bimini, singlehanding, and poptop. "Your mileage will definitely vary."

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 12/01/2006 21:19:55

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2006 : 14:56:04

Steve, if you or I were designing a boat we would do the calculations, put in the necessary security factor and have an extrusion made. I think Butler was far more pragmatic than that, I think he bought in bulk and bought for multiple applications. I have looked at a lot of 25' boats with smaller booms and what appear to be thinner walls. I think my boom is way larger than needed. You bring up an excellent point about the loose foot adding to the equation. What Gene shows appears to be the set-up but I believe it can be a bit more elegant with new materials and hardware. I am willng to bet that by spring I mount a bridgdeck traveler.

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millermg
Navigator

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159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2006 : 15:04:32

Frank,
Interesting idea. I'm not sure how well you can cleat your sheet off the wind w/ either option 1 or 3, as your cleat would most likely take you out of the cockpit?

Anyone done a traveller mounted across the cockpit seats fully forward? It would stick up 3-4 inches above the companionway threshold to which you'd have to step over, and it's a real pain to move the traveller to the side everytime you want to go below, but it's a pretty efficient location on many boats. Several Benneteau's have this setup.

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djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2006 : 15:56:43

There is a tech tip about a guy who put the traveler at the bottom of the companion way. As far as cleating the sheets off, I would mound camcleats at the back of the cabin top inbetween my winches and the pop top. It seems like it would be easier to do a quick adjustment than to have to reach back like I do now. Cheers.

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2006 : 16:33:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">There is a tech tip about a guy who put the traveler at the bottom of the companion way.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I know that guy. Here's the link: http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/TRBimini20060319.asp

Brooke

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2006 : 14:48:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 If you attach the mainsheet to the middle of the boom, you'll be pulling down on the center of the boom, while the sail (especially a loose-footed mainsail) is attached to both ends of the boom, and pulling up. The mainsheet would be trying to pull the boom out of column, and I think the risk of breaking the boom would be increased.

If you attach your cabin top mainsheet to three bales situated along the boom somewhere between about 9-12" apart, it seems like it would spread the load and reduce the tendency to pull the boom out of column.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

OK, so I had this idea, using three blocks for a 4:1, adding eyestraps in front of the cabintop winches. After loking through the posts, I think I will try it out tied to the horns cleats or the handholds before I drill.

Then Steve mentioned spreading the load, so here is the 2-bail version (it would have to be 6:1 with a double on the cleat end to get three bails).

Unless I am seeing wrong, this seems to be what boatgt has.

Edited by - ilnadi on 12/11/2006 14:50:10

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2006 : 17:15:05

ilnadi,

The mainsheet setup you are proposing is similar to the setup on my previous boat, a Venture 25. This setup is operationally identical to a mainsheet system with a fixed point in the center of the cockpit which means that you would not have any traveller like control with the boom and because of this, you'll also have to use the vang more.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2006 : 17:32:32

If you are just trying to make a more usable traveler, this is a lot cheaper ($146):

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df03b3127cce9c219d43ab4f00000015108CbNGrJy0aa

Edited by - Derek Crawford on 12/11/2006 17:34:44

takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2006 : 19:13:17

I think you're asking for trouble if you don't sleeve the boom. I vang sheeted my C25 all the time up wind. Vang on appropriately hard for max close hauled, no boom rise when I dumped the main sheet. Turned out to be a fast way to sail a C25 - at least mine with my sails. BUT - There was a C25 in the yard one year with a cracked boom at the vang attachment point.

Caveat Emptor.

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ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2006 : 22:20:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 If you are just trying to make a more usable traveler, this is a lot cheaper ($146):<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I am trying to get the mainsheet out of the cockpit to have a usable bimini. With the TR boom 1ft lower and the bimini extending over the cabintop to have enough shade for 3-4 people, we have to belly-crawl forward. I figure with the mainsheet mid-boom, the bimini can extend to the transom and passengers can actually sit behind the helmsman at the corners. That should keep them safe from my panic tiller attacks

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by takokichi
 I think you're asking for trouble if you don't sleeve the boom. There was a C25 in the yard one year with a cracked boom at the vang attachment point. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Sleeve as in put more material at the tang point? (like 3/4 of the way around the middle of the boom?)

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