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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Boom length

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MikeM
1st Mate

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72 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/26/2002 : 12:34:01

I was wondering why the boom is so long? Was it oringinaly intended for a larger mainsail, or was it extended to avoid having a traveler in the cockpit (instead of aft).

Mike
C25 #1222
Marblehead, MA

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/26/2002 : 13:24:45

Someone once told me that Catalina used the same boom for the C27 and for the C25 - which may explain the considerable bare area at its end!
Derek on "This Side Up" C25 TRFK #2262

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/26/2002 : 14:18:27

You'd have to ask Frank Butler to be sure, but I think the boom length is intended to be a longer lever, so that you don't need more powerful mainsheet tackle to control it. Also, if the boom was shorter, the mainsheet would be more apt to swing low across the cockpit, snagging people, children and other living things.

I don't buy the notion that Catalina used the same boom for the C-25 as is used on the C-27 just because they didn't want to specify or stock a different length boom. That would imply that the folks at Catalina are a bunch of boobs, and, although that is always a possibility, I have never seen any signs of it.

I have been seeing people on this forum saying the same thing about C-25 tall rig masts. They say that the mast on the tall rig C-25 is the same as the C-27 mast. I haven't responded to that in the past, even though I knew in my heart it wasn't correct. I wanted to check them, just to be sure. I have checked, and both the C-27 standard rig and tall rig masts have a much thicker cross-section than the C-25 tall rig mast.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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jm
Captain

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Canada
290 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2002 : 16:32:27

Sorry Steve, but IMHO, a company that manufacturers the same part for different applications is far from being a 'boob', quite the contrary, it is being efficient in cost,time, setup and materials. As long as the duplicated part meets downward design requirements, I wouldn't see it as a problem. Another example - recent postings on this board suggest that some manufacturer's 4stroke Outboard engines are actually the same engine/displacement, but with throttle governors set to match the horsepower decal on the engine hood.. As long as I get the 15 hp engine I need and pay for, as an 8HP purchaser, I'm not that upset if the engine is more HP than stated, especially if the cost is lower.

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2002 : 17:24:17

Catalina did use the same spars on several boat models. The C-25 tall rig mast is identical to the C-27.

Doug&Ruth
Wind Lass
Tacoma Wa.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3321 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2002 : 18:15:51

Bill Holcomb - can you settle the discussion? Did they or didn't they use the same boom/mast for the C25TR and C27?
Derek

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2002 : 18:16:59

OK Doug and Steve--step outside and settle this once and for all! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

As for the boom, I suspect Catalina lengthened it to improve the sheeting angle to the transom-mounted traveler (the more downward, the flatter the sail), and give more clearance in the cockpit. Looks like a good idea to me.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/27/2002 : 00:44:36

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The C-25 tall rig mast is identical to the C-27.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Last weekend I looked at both tall rig and standard rig C-27s for the specific purpose of comparing those masts with the C-25 tall rig mast. The cross sections of both the tall and standard rig C-27 masts are clearly, unmistakably larger than the cross-section of the C-25 tall rig mast. I didn't even bother to measure the masts, because they are obviously different. I looked at two standard rig C-27s and two tall rig C-27s of different vintages, and about four tall rig C-25s of different vintages, including my own. The C-25 tall rig mast is not the same as the C-27 mast. If you still doubt it, compare them first-hand and judge for yourselves.

I agree that a manufacturer would not be a "boob" if it used the same part for two different boat designs, so long as it reasonably fit both applications. But, one implication of the original question was that the boom is much too long for use on the C-25, and, knowing that, Catalina proceeded to use it anyway to build several thousand C-25s. I don't believe Catalina did that, but if they did, then I think that would qualify them as boobs. Using an oversized part that obviously doesn't fit, in a place where it would be highly noticeable, would be cheesy. I don't think Catalina made the C-25 boom the same length as the C-27 boom for convenience or economy. I think they made the C-25 boom the length that was correct for the boat. I don't know whether the C-25 and C-27 booms are the same dimensions, but I'll measure them and let you know.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> As for the boom, I suspect Catalina lengthened it to improve the sheeting angle to the transom-mounted traveler (the more downward, the flatter the sail), and give more clearance in the cockpit. Looks like a good idea to me.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I agree with Dave.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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MikeM
1st Mate

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72 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2002 : 10:01:31

Thanks for the replies. It must have been the sheeting advantage (having it aft), and avoiding the passengers.

MikeM
C25 #1222
Marblehead, MA

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2002 : 10:18:45

Hah! Here's another spin on it!
My buddy and I installed internal outhauls in our booms together. When we laid them side by side, my 1981 was longer that his 1986.
I'd relate that one (respectfully so) to cost cutting.

Steve Madsen
#2428
OJ (Ode to Joy)

[url="http://catalina25-250.org/photo0.htm/"]<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/photo/ode075.jpg" border=0>[/url]

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Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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Response Posted - 06/27/2002 : 10:31:54

Okay guys, here's the answer.

First, the C25 boom is as long as it is to move the mainsheet tackle as far aft in the cockpit as possible. The tackle ends up as close to vertical as it can be - hence better sail control with the aft traveler......This for the original standard rig setup. With the tall rig boom a foot closer to the cabin top, quite a bit of the vertical nature of the mainsheet tackle is lost. So, long boom = mainsheet further aft.

As to using the same boom on C25s and C27s.....not so. But, that discussion is closer to the truth than might appear. Catalina buys more extruded aluminum "tube" than any sailboat maker in the U.S. And, believe me, Frank Butler is a cost conscious kind of company owner. He figured out that by using the same materials in more than one design, the quantity discounts on those materials could be passed on to the customer with a product at a lower price........and thereby sell more products.

So, in fact, Frank told me that the C25 tall rig mast is the same extrusion as the boom extrusion on a C30.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3321 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2002 : 11:04:44

"Frank told me that the C25 tall rig mast is the same extrusion as the boom extrusion on a C30."

Surely not in length tho' Bill. That would make the C30 boom as long as the boat itself...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2002 : 11:43:11

Aluminum extrusions are just raw materials that can be cut to various lengths and used for various purposes. Doug and others on this forum did not say that the same extrusions were used. They have been saying that "The C-25 tall rig mast is identical to the C-27." I am saying that the C-25 tall rig mast is not identical to the C-27 mast, nor are the extrusions the same. The masts are different and the extrusions are different.

The fact that Catalina fabricates its own spars from raw extrusion tubing makes it even more clear that Catalina did not use an oversized C-27 boom on the tall rig C-25, simply because they already had C-27 booms on hand. They fabricate booms that are the correct length, and that use the correct size extrusions, for each size and design of boat.

Some might say, "What difference does all this discussion make, so long as our boats function properly?" The difference is that this is simply a myth that reflects adversely on Catalina's construction methods. As I said earlier, if Catalina used an oversized part that obviously doesn't fit, in a place where it would be highly noticeable, that would be cheesy. On this forum we should candidly acknowledge any real imperfections in our boats, so we can help each other find remedies, but those of us who own Catalinas should be careful not to perpetuate myths that reflect adversely on our own boats. There are enough outsiders who are all too quick to do that.

These myths occur because someone says something, and nobody questions it, and it sounds reasonable, so it gets repeated, and the more often it is repeated, the more convinced we are that it is true, because we have heard it said by so many different people. I'm just saying that the assertions that C-25 tall rig masts and booms are the same as C-27 masts and booms are not true, and we should dispel the myth.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/27/2002 : 12:01:50

I've heard that the mizzen mast on the C-25 is actually a C-22 mast extrusion, but shorter <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle> .

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jellyfish
Navigator

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171 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2002 : 13:11:46

oh yea, well you can fit a Hobie 14 mast stepped on the traveler and have yourself a yall! or is that catch?<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

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jm
Captain

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Canada
290 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2002 : 15:41:52

Eloquently, yet matter-of-factly stated Steve ! I agree - who needs another urban? legend. Everyone, altogether now, repeat after me..

The mast and boom on a C25 are not the same as those on a C27.

The mast and boom on a C25 are not the same as those on a C27.

The mast and boom on a C25 are not the same as those on a C27.

The mast and boom on a C25 are not the same as those on a C27.

The mast and boom on a C25 are not the same as those on a C27.

The mast and boom on a C25 are not the same as those on a C27.

Now let's get out there and sail ! ! !

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jellyfish
Navigator

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171 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2002 : 17:29:33

aye, aye capt'n fire as yer bare!

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3321 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2002 : 18:38:01

There are times when you guys are funnier than a barrel of monkeys! Thank goodness we can all accept others opinions...
Derek

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2002 : 08:27:01

---I stayed out of this one as long as I could, but then the smart ass comments started to fly and you guys know I have to put my two cents in for this kind of stuff

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I've heard that the mizzen mast on the C-25 is actually a C-22 mast extrusion, but shorter <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle> .
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Now you have me thinking...There is a beat up 22 that has been on the hard here for 4 years, I have an old starboat main sail and plenty of extra lines and blocks and tackle...plus the old shrouds from the 25....Someone get me something to use as the mizzen-boom while I run home and get my saw and some West System....

Edited by - Duane Wolff on 06/28/2002 08:28:36

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2002 : 09:19:25

Duane,
I've also extended my genoa car tracks 48" aft of the transom to accomodate my 300% light air genny. You could attach the stays for the mizzen mast to the brackets that support these longer tracks. Let me know and I'll e-mail you my cad drawings.

Steve Madsen
#2428
OJ (<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>de to Joy)

ps even if you guys choose to ignore me, I may not stop.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3321 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2002 : 10:31:16

Steve - have you got a PHRF rating for your new rig??<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2002 : 12:25:25

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Duane,
I've also extended my genoa car tracks 48" aft of the transom to accomodate my 300% light air genny. You could attach the stays for the mizzen mast to the brackets that support these longer tracks. Let me know and I'll e-mail you my cad drawings.

Steve Madsen

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Yeah, but Steve, I have to find a boom first...and, I want to have a Ketch, not a Yawl. so I am going to have to mount it on the Transom, Hopefully I won't have to move the traveler because I still want to race her one design.

300%? 48" aft huh, I don't even want to do the math on that one for fear that your numbers would be correct...that would make you one sick individual.

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b1ce23b3127cce9b043565af3d0000004010" border=0>

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2002 : 13:25:56

Well I still have to install the C-30 bow sprit. I'm waiting for the retro kit from Catalina Direct.

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2002 : 13:34:24

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Well I still have to install the C-30 bow sprit. I'm waiting for the retro kit from Catalina Direct.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Why stick with Catalina Only Parts...If we are truly going to trick out the boat, why not try one of the Sport boats with the pneumatic bow sprit...I think a J-80 has one...Next up is the neon rail lights ,<s>curb</s> dock feelers and Gold Chain License plate covers.

Which reminds me, The Wasp will be old enough for Historical Plates next year...

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b1ce23b3127cce9b043565af3d0000004010" border=0>

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2002 : 18:10:40

Why stop at a ketch? A C-30 mast on the cockpit sole, compression post under it, A-frame aft sprit for a backstay, shortened boom on the forward (now mizzen) mast, and I've got myself a SCHOONER! Run the mizzzen backstay to the main masthead and I can fly a staysail from it. A bowsprit would allow a bigger genny and club-footed inner forestay sail ("Yankee"?) for balance. I'll extend the fin keel aft to help balance the helm and keep the boat upright. A perfect design for Long Island Sound or Chesapeake Bay August days...

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/28/2002 22:21:43

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2002 : 04:58:53

I think a ladder comming off of the side would be cool for hiking out like on those Aussie 14's

Matt Loeffler
E.C. Rider
Cat 25 86'
FK/SR _/)

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