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sailing irishman
Deckhand

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USA
10 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/01/2007 : 21:41:20

On my C25, I had it moored for several months. I checked on her about once a week, and always found that there could be 6" to a foot of water in the interior of the boat. The batteries would of course be dead from the bilge running (did not have electric hookups), I would hook up to charge batteries and bilge out the water. It would take about an hour, and the only water I would be able to see would be under the aft dinette seat. The water was brackish, and matched the local water. I have read about swing keel leaking, and thru hulls leaking. Any ideas on trouble shooting? I am new to the boat and to sailing and I am trying to find my way around the boat, if you have ideas or pics, it would be greatly appreciated.

Stephen

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2007 : 22:43:17

I hate to break it to you, but that is a serious leak. The only water that should be in our boats is rain water from a leaky deck. There are many supects with a swing keel. The trouble with the swing, is a leak could indicate a very serious defect. You need to get to the bottom of this.

I have a wing and do not have an auto bilge pump. The bilge stays dry except when I am cleaning or spill something into it.

Good luck figuring this out.

Tom.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2007 : 06:37:20

OK Stephen, this correlates to your other post. PULL YOUR BOAT. Get your bottom stripped! You need to inspect your hull meticulously. Never assume that one leak is all you will find. I would be pooping bricks if I were you.

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2007 : 07:30:22

Hi Stephen, yep, it is time to pull your boat. If it is a bottom leak and the battaries die sooner than you expect and you don't get out there soon enough, your boat will be sunk!!! Bottom leaks don't stop until the boat is full. One thing you might try is to pull the boat, dry the bottom really will, then run a hose into the boat and fill all the compartments and see were the warer starts dripping from or where a wet spot shows up on the outside. Let us know how it turns out. Cheers.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2007 : 08:13:17

Stephen,

Before you pull your boat, bail/pump it out and check the obvious locations where a hull leak may occur. These include at least two through-hull fittings, one in the bow under the v-berth which provides water for your marine head, and one port side mid-ships under the stove. It should be fairly obvious if these are leaking. You'll need to pull the boat to replace or rebed them.

I don't know anything about the swing keel and it's potential leak points. I'm sure a swing keel owner here can help. Again, water leaking in should be obvious, though you may have to spend some time on the boat looking for it.

Keep us posted on your progress. Once you have the leak(s) nailed down you'll wantsme advice on hull repair or replacement parts.

Edited by - aeckhart on 02/02/2007 08:16:01

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2007 : 10:04:55

Steven...Had a swing '83 that had water in aft dinette seat compartment constantly. As mentioned above check the tru hulls. My problem never involved them but they sure could do you a load of trouble. The hose in the aft berths where the keel cable goes thru to the keel has caused several folks a problem. Check it out making sure it is double fastened with stainless hose clamps and that there is no rubber decay. My problem was in the forward dinette seat compartment. The previous owner had dropped the keel and crushed the hump in this locker where the pivoting end of the keel rests. Though my problem was in this location it wasn't obvious. Check the archives for posts by Ken Caves. His damage was obvious and the repair was well documented with photos depicting the repairs needed to correct his keels trouble. I bought a boat that seems to have the trouble that you are having. I hope not. My boat was professionally repaired twice. And sunk in its slip twice. Fortunately the slip was shallow and the "sinkings" never had more than six inches of water in the boat, had the slip been deep she would have gone under. The problem reappeared twice until in frustration I opted to plug the hole with a wing keel retrofi kit. It did the job. However it comes at some cost. I'll never be accused of selling a problem to an unsuspecting buyer, which it seems you were and I definitely was.

If you want more information contact me off forum and I'll share my experiences with you.

Val on the hard Dagnabit #3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2007 : 14:03:16

Hi Stephen,

I had the same kind of problem that Tinob described. I too plugged the hole with a wing keel retrofit, which I don't regret at all. I think it cost me three years ago somewhere around $2,400 to $2,800 installed. Close to half of that was labor.

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2007 : 16:24:57

In the mean time you could install one of these:
[url="http://www.jrsupplies.com/bilge-pump-assembly.html"]Wave Bilge Pump[/url]

Edited by - on

sailing irishman
Deckhand

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USA
10 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2007 : 19:45:29

Thanks to all the advice, the boat is on the trailer and has been "drying" for about 4 months. There is still some minimal water under the dinette settee that I am going to vac out. I was inspecting the hull today and noticed two rubber grommets toward the bow on the very bottom basically under the V-berth. These look to not be seated well, and are plugged, I am not sure what there are for. I plan to rework both of the thru hulls to make sure they are seated well, and also check the inside and inspect the hoses to make sure they are in good order. I have found a place to rent boat jacks and thought I would life the boat off of the trailer and drop the keel, replace the keel cable and inspect the swing keel locker. Any advice? I am pretty mechanically inclined, and the thought of the above do not feel to afraid. Am I naive? Again, thanks to all you advice, and I am glad I found this place.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2007 : 23:04:31

Stephen,

Regarding gaining access to the swing keel of a boat on a trailer. I've had good results from leaving the boat on the bunks or rollers, and removing the part of the trailer in the way of the swing keel. This depends a lot on where the trailer frame crossmembers are in relation to the swing keel trunk. On the trailer I use for my C-25, the two main crossmember are ahead of, and behind the ends of the trunk. By removing the undercarriage (axles, etc.) I had room to install the swing keel while the boat was on the trailer in my driveway. This trailer uses rollers instead of carpeted bunks, so I was even able to move the hull back and forth on the trailer without much trouble.

When I built a three crossmember trailer for my previous sailboat, I made the middle cross beam removable with several large bolts, so it could be gotten out of the way along with the undercarriage.

As for locating your hull leaks, I would check, in the following order: the lower gudgeon, all the thru-hulls, the 'head' of the swing keel trunk (inside the base of the fwd dinette seat), the aft end of the trunk, the keel pivot area, the long edges where the vertical walls of the trunk meet the horizontal bottom of the hull, and any obviously damaged, repaired, or unfair spots below the waterline.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Steve Siefken
1st Mate

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USA
81 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2007 : 23:15:00

Stephen,

For what it is worth, I have had my 1984 swing keel for going on 2 years. It has been in the water all that time.

I have not had one drop of water in my bilge.

Edited by - on

sailing irishman
Deckhand

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USA
10 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2007 : 07:48:35

Thanks Leon, I plan to start my detective work today. Looking at some of my thru hulls, they do not look good and with further research, the year of my boat (generally all older Catalina's), have poor metal thru hulls and should be replaced with the PVC style like on newer boats. Also, great idea about removing the cross members, I am going to look into that, I too have rollers so should be able to move boat forward and aft to find the right spot.

And to Steve, I hope to have your problem in a few weeks. Thanks,

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2007 : 07:59:44

Hi Stephen... I wasn't a swinger owner, but I've been following their travails for some time... A couple of points (some which have nothing to do with the keel):

Thru-hulls--I believe the 1981 models were built with what are commonly called "to-hulls" here--short bronze pipes screwed into the hull with a "mushroom" of epoxy supporting them on the inside, and nothing whatsoever on the outside. If that describes what you have, then do a Search on the C-25 Forum Archives for discussions on that, and think seriously about replacing them with proper thru-hulls (with a dome on the outside). If you see a flush disk on the outside, then you have proper, flush-mounted thru-hulls.

Swing keel--the damage that Val (Tinob) and others allude to can be caused by the keel cable breaking when the keel is up, allowing it to swing down with great force (3/4 ton of cast iron) whereupon it is stopped (sort of) by the structure at the front of the keel trunk. You get the picture... You can also do a search on this topic--lots has been written--or go to the expert: Val (Tinob). There are also threads and I think a Tech Tip with pictures on dropping the keel using long bolts--looks like a good approach. However, I think Ken Cave's discussions disappeared with the association's switch in forum hosts. (It'll happen to all of us eventually.)

Best of luck--there's a ton of information here if you go looking, and everyone is anxious to discuss, answer, or just commiserate.

(This post and your previous one must have passed each other over Nebraska.)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/03/2007 08:08:17

sailing irishman
Deckhand

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USA
10 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2007 : 19:33:58

Well, again thanks to all the great advice. I pulled all the settee covers and vac'd about 12 gallons of h2o from the belly. I think I found the culprit. My Thru-hull for my waste dump was loose. It has been changed to a PVC mushroom thru-hull, but the inside plumbing looks like a homemade job, with standard iron and pvc pipe you may find at home depot. I am not opposed to saving money, but this does not seem to be the most efficient. Does anyone have a pic of their forward settee and the thru-hull showing their plumbing? I would appreciate seeing maybe the right way to do it. Thanks,

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2007 : 12:07:37

Stephen: Did you put a ball-style seacock on the inside of that new thru-hull? That's an important part of "the right way". Another part is two stainless hoseclamps on each connection. And your instincts are correct--until you become an expert, buy your components from a marine store, not Home Dopey.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/05/2007 12:11:15

sailing irishman
Deckhand

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USA
10 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2007 : 13:23:56

Dave, I did not replace the Thru-hull yet, it had already been done, I am taking it apart due to the amount of corrosion on the connecting pieces. The used a reducer elbow from 1 1/2 to 1 1/4 with a PVC straight line turn valve to another reducer plastic elbow to the ribbed hose leading from the tank. There appears to be too much ribbed hose, I plan to shorten it up for space sake, put in as few plumbing pieces hopefully not so many connections and no reductions unless absolutely needed. I will, as you suggest, use a ball type valve, I was looking on a website I found on an archived forum regarding Thru-hull replacements (cannot now remember, have to look it up again) and found what you are referring to. The one in the website had the Thru-hull and valve all in one, what do you think?? Thanks again for the info and advice,

Edited by - on

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