Association Forum - Association Leadership On The Carpet

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Association Leadership On The Carpet

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

saribella
Captain

Member Avatar

USA
286 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/17/2007 : 13:25:36

I have only been an active member of this association for the past year since purchasing my Capri 25. I am aware of how and why the Capri came into being sponsored by the Catalina 25/250 Association and the very hard work the Association has done to bring the Capri under its banner of sponsorship. Very much appreciated. The major reason I purchased a Capri 25 was because of the apparent community/support of the class both within this forum and the Yahoo site, and opportunities to socialize and race regionally/nationally within the class. I have been an active participant in discussions, attending an association event, posting in the forum, & being a moderator of the yahoo group, etc. so it is not like I have not been involved. So what I am about to state next does have a degree of merit, but should not come as a surprise nor is it intended to offend. I just think it is time to quit having discussions behind the scenes and lay it all on the table for open discussion.

Simply put the Capri class has very little if any support from this association for engagement, promotion, and inclusion of the Capri community other than superficially. I am not the only one with this opinion. This position is evident by the exclusion of the Capri 25 at the class 07' nationals this summer in Cleveland. I was personally looking forward to attending a vetted class nationals up to the moment I read the notice of race for the nationals regatta. Hell, I even tried to contact the local Catalina association on multiple occasions to sponsor a bid for the nationals here on Lake Michigan; receiving no response, however. The proper position by the race committee and the association leadership would have been to, at the very least, include the Capri in the event. It is only an advertisement. If two Capri's would have participated there still could have been match races, and it would have still been worth it; in my opinion. It was a serious cop-out by the association leadership to not include the Capri and then defer us to the WYC for a "nationals" regatta. To my knowledge this decision was made without consulting the three active/paying Capri members of this association. Not cool. This did nothing but alienate the majority of the entire Capri constituency of this association.

In regards to the WYC, the only thing that was accomplished by deferring the Capri "Nationals" to them was for this association to be complicit in their introverted demeanor, and obvious policy of failing to engage the rest of the Capri community or the vetted class association on a level outside of their own isolated group. This action was completely counter-productive to the promotion of the Capri 25 class, and really demoralizing to say the least. The fact is the WYC Capri, and I use this term loosely, "fleet" is not a vetted organization by the class association. Yes the WYC has the greatest concentration of Capri's, but by far is not the majority. I have had communications with a few individuals within this association regarding the WYC, and the general consensus is that the association leadership has done very little or the bare minimum to engage them. A class resource truly not realized.

At this point two of the most active Capri members are considering a halt to their support of this association because of the failings of the leadership to display a genuine engagement of the Capri Class as a whole. Speaking for myself, the only reason I am considering staying is to throw my name in to the hat or support another in the hopes of a Capri member attaining an executive board position. There are others by far more qualified than myself. It has been discussed, and I happen to agree, that the only way to truly bring about change for the betterment of this association as a whole is for a Capri owner to be a member of the executive board. It would convey, if nothing else, that this association is serious about including and engaging the Capri community. Yes, it is a fact that no one kept a Capri member from entering a name for the last executive board elections, and for this failure the active Capri membership has to take responsibility. Could a Capri member be a member of the executive board while Capri sponsorship is still probationary?

I have my ideas about what changes and strategies could be instituted to benefit this association as well as the Capri Class overall. If anyone wishes to hear them let me know. What I am interested in knowing does anyone else have any input regarding the issues I have stated above? I would very much like to read some feedback, responses, and positive ideas of what can be done and what should be done. In all probablility the feedback received will determine the course of the Capri 25 community.

Edited by - saribella on 03/17/2007 13:50:23

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2007 : 15:06:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by saribella
 ..... To my knowledge this decision was made without consulting the three active/paying Capri members of this association. Not cool. This did nothing but alienate the majority of the entire Capri constituency of this association.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So, if I read this right, 3 people were "alienated"? It seems to me that I read the Association has over 400 members. So, the "Capri constituency" is less than 1% of the association.

Here's how I read the eligibility statement: "C25 Assn US National Championship Regatta (NCR) is open to all members in good standing of the international association." (taken from the Notice of Race) If you're a member then, I would read that to include you. So, I'm having a hard time understanding your dilemma.

I'm finding it hard to believe there's some great conspiracy to exclude Capris but, I've been wrong before and will be again. Given that only 3 Capri owners have elected to become members, maybe it might be better to encorage recruitment of fellow Capri owners rather than threaten to take your Capri and go home.

Our current Commodore recently posted a plea to ALL MEMBERS to step up to the table and seek election to the executive board. I would encourage you to do that. I might even vote for you...

Lighten up.

Edited by - John Russell on 03/17/2007 15:09:02

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2007 : 16:57:14

Before we chastise any of our members who are already upset, maybe we should find out whether they have a legitimate complaint. I also read the Notice of Race, which is sloppily written and ambiguous, and it's not at all clear whether it contemplates that the Capri 25 class will participate in the Cleveland event. I think an officer should clarify whether the Capri 25 class is included in the June 28-July 1, 2007 National Regatta.

I don't think the Capri 25s should be given preferential treatment, but I do think they should be given the same treatment as is given to other classes. If only two Capri 25s appear at the National event, they should be allowed to compete as a class in that event. Although the minimum number of entrants has often been debated, to the best of my recollection we have usually allowed at least two C25 tall rigs, or two C25 standard rigs, or two C250s to compete for their class championship. If only one boat shows up in a class, I think the event should be cancelled for that class, but if two or more boats make the effort to show up, then they ought to be allowed to race for their national championship. We presently have only three Capri 25 members, and, if we require that all three show up before they're allowed to compete, we might never host a Capri 25 National Regatta. If we host the event, and other Capri 25 owners hear about it, they might be motivated to join and attend the next event.

It wasn't long ago that the C250s only constituted a very small percentage of our total membership. As I recall, I made the same arguments in favor of letting at least two C250s compete in their national regatta, at a time when the C250s were having a hard time finding enough participants. You don't build membership by ignoring the minority members.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/17/2007 17:09:24

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2007 : 18:29:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by saribella
 Simply put the Capri class has very little if any support from this association for engagement, promotion, and inclusion of the Capri community other than superficially...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The wording of the Notice-of-Race aside, in what areas do you feel the C25 and C250 classes are getting more support than the Capri 25?

Edited by - on

mhartong
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2007 : 19:43:48

I agree with Steve about including the Capri's.

If the association is recognized by US Sailing as the offical "One Design" Class Representataive for the Catalina 25's, 250;s and Capri 25, and we are holding a national championship that is recognized by US Sailing, then we have an obligation to include the Capri's. If we aren't having a national championship that is recognized by US Sailing, then is it really a national championship?

if we are the the US Sailing recognized One Design Representative, then one needs to ask how the Wayzata Yacht Club is going to be able to host the "2007 Capri 25 World Championship" ( currently scheduled 7-8 September 2007)? It's my understanding that such an event would need to be sanctioned by the National Class Organization (US), US Sailing, and the ISAF.

Not a racer, just a cruiser (but a US Sailing member anyway

)

Mark

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2007 : 22:57:10

IV. OFFICERS:
A. The elected officers of the Association (“Officers”) shall be Commodore, Vice Commodore, Secretary, Treasurer, Chief Measurer and Capri 25 Measurer. The incumbent Secretary, by any means deemed effective and appropriate by the incumbent Officers, shall issue a call for nominations by August 7 (self-nominations acceptable) and shall distribute ballots prior to September 7. The election for Officers shall be completed by September 30 via a vote of the Regular Members (Article VIII, Section A). Terms of office shall commence October 1 and shall be for a period of twelve months, however, if for whatever reason elections are delayed the incumbent Officers shall serve an extended term and the elections shall be completed in as timely a manner as reasonable. No term limits shall apply.

B. For the period beginning September 30, 2005 and ending September 30, 2007 (the “Integration Trial Period”), Regular Members belonging to the Capri 25 Design Class are only eligible to hold the office of Capri 25 Measurer, but are immediately eligible to serve in any Staff position. At any time and for any reason during or after the Integration Trial Period, a majority vote of the Regular Members in good standing of the Catalina 25 Design Class and the Catalina 250 Design Class may effect the disassociation of the Capri 25 Design Class from the Association, and cause all record of the Capri 25 Design Class to be stricken from the Association Constitution, By-Laws and Design Class Rules. In such instance of a Capri 25 Design Class disassociation, the annual membership dues of the Capri 25 Design Class Members shall be refunded in full for the current year.

Mark, your point about USSA recognition is very valid, and a classic example of an unanticipated consequence.
Matthew, I can well see why you are chomping at the bit at this point in the Capri integration process. The waning days of a well served probation are frustrating.
All organizations go through cycles, mostly defined by the efforts of a few people. Record keeping is probably the biggest single failing of any volunteer organization, so everyone is left with anecdotal evidence for a lot of things.
I have been involved with the Capri integration since its inception. The WYC organization has a history of holding an annual Capri Regatta where they sail for the Capri One Design Championship, they have put a lot of work in this and have a large local fleet. The Officers of this organization, going back to Don Peet’s board have been committed to honoring the tradition of WYC. That seemed well and good except we were never able to create a dialog with anyone from WYC. We have continued down what we saw as an appropriate time table for WYC to get comfortable with us holding a regatta where we name a national champion. That time frame parallels the probationary period for the restructuring of the organization to include the Capri 25.
A probationary period?! Yes. When this all began there were those who were concerned that WYC would recognize the functionality of this association and simply fill every office with their people. While not intended to defame anyone, it simply recognized that the organization needs some modicum of continuity on the board. (This is primarily a cruising organization whose purpose is to provide a virtual community where people can communicate with each other to preserve the value of their boats.) The current board has already discussed the funds necessary to purchase the traveling trophy for the first Catalina/Capri 25/250 International Association sanctioned Capri 25 National event. (We are looking for a sponsor to buy it.) The National’s program is in place to contribute to the vitality of the association and bring the knowledge base of the racing community to the broader community.
Circumstantially, the fellow from the Capri broach documentary has replied to an email from me. I have not replied back to him yet but will include a link to this thread when I do.
In September we need to decide whether or not the integration, the effort to provide support to the Capri owners has been a good idea. As you can see in the by-laws there is a provision in place to declare this a fiat and return to the old more narrow focus of only the Catalina 250 and 25. The members of the several boards involved have held diverse positions. However we function as a board and the by-laws reflect the situation as it stands.
The issue will be on the fall ballot where the new board will also be elected. Who knows maybe the Capri standing will be an election issue. FYI that means around 50 people will decide because of the 700 members of the 6000 boats only around 50 seem to vote; but 50 is better than just the board.
Anyone is able to bring anything to the board for consideration; if someone wants to represent the association in recruiting Capri sailors to the association they have the blessing of the association. After all, we have already issued the invitation.

Frank Hopper, Commodore

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3468 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2007 : 07:32:00

I am not active on anything in this Association except this Forum (Board postings) and paying dues. Not complaining - I appreciate the sharing of thoughts and technical tips that this Association supports thru maintenance of this website. Obviously, there are some that get a lot more out of all of this by participating in the Natls, etc events. So....for those with or have potential for higher levels of participation, I can understand some of their frustration. But I am curious as to just what percentage (or total numbers of individuals) actually participate in these events thru the year, deriving more benefit compared to the total number of individuals that pay dues and also compared to the total number of individuals that regularly post/respond on this Forum ?

Even if those that are active participants make up a very small number of the total, I am not belittling any of these issues that come up. In many Associations there are those that are very active and then a majority that are not so involved. For all that devote their time to assisting in administering to any of the Association's business, thank you for your efforts. We all derive some benefit no matter what levels of participation.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2007 : 07:39:12

If Capri owners bring their boats to Cleveland June 28-July 1, 2007, will they be permitted to race for the Capri 25 national championship?

If not, why not?

What is the Association's plan for the Capri 25 class in the future? Is it contemplated that this association will ever include the Capri 25 National Regatta in our National Regatta, or will we always defer to the WYC's event?

Why are we afraid of the possibility that Capri owners might take a meaningful part in governing the national association? That's a natural consequence of their membership. They're not evil people, bent on destroying the national association from within. Change is a good thing. Even if they could gain control, they'd have to be out of their minds to disregard the wishes of the Catalina 25/250 members.

I never understood the reason for the probationary period. Now that it has been explained, I think we should put the question to an end. As soon as possible, we should decide whether the Capri 25s will remain a part of the C25/250 National Association. I see absolutely no reason to exclude them, unless the present Capri 25 members drop out of the association. If they do, then the Capri 25 National Association would become an organization with no members, and simply cease to exist, and we might as well make it official. I think it would be a mistake for them to do so, but they'll have to make their own decisions.

The above questions need to be answered. If the Capri 25s are not going to be included in the activities of this association in every respect, then they probably won't want to continue their affiliation, and understandably so. We need to decide whether we are going to make a firm committment to the Capri 25s, and they likewise need to decide whether to make a firm committment to this association. It goes both ways.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2007 : 08:10:03

Larry, only a small percentage of our total members actually participate in the National Regatta, and similar activities. That might lead one to believe that we're spending too much money on an event that only benefits a few, but that's not so. The National Regatta is organized by a local sponsor, and the actual cost to this association is nominal. The trophies were purchased about 25 years ago, and the names of annual winners are engraved onto a plate attached to them. The local sponsoring club usually organizes the event in conjunction with an annual regatta that they would already be organizing, so, they only need to make allowances for additional participants. A registration fee is charged to the participants, and that fee is intended to cover other incidental costs. Some local donations are solicited. For example, it's usually not difficult to persuade a local beer distributer to donate a few cases of beer for the event. The event is not expensive for either the local sponsoring club or for this association. The incentive for a local club to sponsor the event is that it's a great party and a lot of fun, and it's a chance to race in a regatta that means something. There are always some outstanding racers who participate, but the event is not so intense or intimidating as to discourage average sailors from participating. Every time I have attended a national regatta, I have learned something about sailing or racing or about the Catalina 25.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2007 : 08:33:17

Instead of chastizing our officers for any perceived injustices, I applaud them for their efforts so far to include the Capri 25
Do not forget that we are a volunteer organization, and our officers work their asses off for us.
This is a great opportunity for the Capri 25 owners to step up to the plate too. (don't you just love baseball metaphors?)

Edited by - on

existentialsailor
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1180 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2007 : 10:20:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gloss
 Instead of chastizing our officers for any perceived injustices, I applaud them for their efforts so far to include the Capri 25
Do not forget that we are a volunteer organization, and our officers work their asses off for us.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There has been more effort than many realize. The fact that those efforts have not born as much fruit as many of us could wish for does not diminish the efforts made.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2007 : 11:29:21

Matthew:

As you know, we just recently added the Capri 25’s to our National association. The Catalina MAINSHEET magazine gave them zero recognition, they had only a small yahoo group and no other support. The small group at WYC was fairly exclusive and because of their size hosted a “nationals” every year, however a very small number of people outside of their group attended. We had a few Capri owners on our web board that felt inclusion in our group would be of help.

We currently have secured pages within that magazine for Capri 25 representation, went through a couple thousand dollar website renovation to include Capri 25s, have put Capri 25 owners on our board and staff and as mentioned are continuing along down the path of total integration.

While I don’t agree with the reasoning presented as to why they couldn’t hold office, I don’t think all any of the officers wanted to vote down integration over 1 line that may or may not have had any real bearing.

WYC will continue to hold events such as their current world or national or inter-galactic event. We really don’t have any recourse, US Sailing or Other, to tell them they cannot. Starting in 08 the plan was to not recognize their event. They could opt to bid for the event as they see fit.

As for this years Event. All boats are more than welcome to attend. However since the Capri sails with a spinnaker, they will be placed on a different course. Not to mention the huge PHRF rating difference which would have them no-where near the start sequence of the C-25s. Optimally the capri’s would have been brought in during the prior week of Cleveland Race week when strict one design racing takes place, however with such small numbers getting the six boats required to have their own fleet wasn't realistic. As you know the Catalina 25 class never was a one design racer – I any of its models which is why they race during the handicap portion of CRW.

When we were without bids for the 07 Nationals one of the racers from last year stepped up and said he would do all the leg work if Edgewater would have us back. Since the Capri’s wouldn’t be fully integrated and EYC was our only option bid we as officers accepted Bill Meinert’s proposal.

I would propose that you ask the board for monetary reimbursement – we currently have opportunities to reimburse up to 350 dollars for various events members host or go to. You could use this to attend the WYC hosted nationals and help defray the costs. And also bone up for the first fully association sponsored nationals in 08. There is normally a boat minimum associated to this type of request – but it wouldn’t hurt to discuss.

If you care to discuss further please email me directly.

Duane

Edited by - Champipple on 03/18/2007 11:32:49

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2007 : 12:03:43

I just came off two hours of trying to balance three checkbooks that didn't add up, and so thought I'd take a brake and come to the forum and relax.....Give my tired eyes a rest....Think I'll go give the checkbooks another try.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT #3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2007 : 12:19:41

If Capri owners bring their boats to Cleveland June 28-July 1, 2007, will they be permitted to race for the Capri 25 national championship? 

no

If not, why not? 

This Association has decided that awarding a Nationals trophy during a probationary period is inappropriate.

What is the Association's plan for the Capri 25 class in the future? Is it contemplated that this association will ever include the Capri 25 National Regatta in our National Regatta, or will we always defer to the WYC's event? 

The 08 Nationals will have a Capri 25 National Champion trophy.

Why are we afraid of the possibility that Capri owners might take a meaningful part in governing the national association? That's a natural consequence of their membership. They're not evil people, bent on destroying the national association from within. Change is a good thing. Even if they could gain control, they'd have to be out of their minds to disregard the wishes of the Catalina 25/250 members.

This was and is an appropriate ramification of a probationary period.

I never understood the reason for the probationary period. Now that it has been explained, I think we should put the question to an end. As soon as possible, we should decide whether the Capri 25s will remain a part of the C25/250 National Association. I see absolutely no reason to exclude them, unless the present Capri 25 members drop out of the association. If they do, then the Capri 25 National Association would become an organization with no members, and simply cease to exist, and we might as well make it official. I think it would be a mistake for them to do so, but they'll have to make their own decisions.

A board of duly elected officers agreed on language which was voted on by the membership. The probationary period ends this September.

The above questions need to be answered. If the Capri 25s are not going to be included in the activities of this association in every respect, then they probably won't want to continue their affiliation, and understandably so. We need to decide whether we are going to make a firm commitment to the Capri 25s, and they likewise need to decide whether to make a firm commitment to this association. It goes both ways.

The Capri owners have not hit critical mass as members, the "they" you refer to is three people. Our commitment to the Capri owners is firm, it is codified in our by-laws.

This association benefits from any and all discussion relevant to our boats and how this organization functions. However, I believe it is inappropriate for non-voting honorary members to participate in a way that impugns the efforts of voting members. Demanding answers to questions implies a standing to ask the questions and that a non-answer would be an affront of some sort. I do not think members who cannot vote on by-laws should try to affect them.
We own inexpensive little boats in a world of big boats and big people who own them. The civility of this association is a cornerstone of its success. The membership knows that every concern and member will be treated with respect. I am proud to serve as Commodore and will support fully those who follow me.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 03/18/2007 12:28:15

saribella
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
286 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2007 : 12:54:08

In response to all:

I (we) are not upset, per-say, and are are not complaining nor suggesting that the Capri Class deserves "special" treatment. If there are three members of an entire class it is still 100% of a entire class. A comparison against the total association membership is irrelevant. Just thought I would get this out of the way, first. The entire purpose of opening this discussion is not intended to offend anyone, or throw the leadership under the bus; but just to open the discussion to reach some level of resolution as this issue has been festering for he past few months. There are a few of us that have been working really hard to increase national/international Capri participation within the class and this association. Chris & Rick deserve the lion's share of the credit for participation with this association as well as with the Yahoo group. They have always been willing to step up when needed and now it is my turn. This situation is going to go one of two ways, either the Yahoo site will be closed and this association will become the single source for all that is Capri, or we will take actions to move away from this association and have a Capri stand-alone group; The first scenario would be in party's best interest, in my opinion. This has nothing to do with taking our boats and going home as one individual suggested. What we as class "members" do expect is inclusion probationary or not. In my opinion the probationary period to solely determine whether or not the probationary class has the will and membership participation to become fully vetted and adopted into the group. In return the governing association has the duty to support and include the probationary class including support for increasing class membership. Sometimes this cannot be all hugs and kisses of which I will touch on in the following paragraph. This inclusion requires that the Capri class be treated as the other class's, and included in member events held in conjunction and within the same venue in respect to the rest of the association. My (our) issues go much deeper than just the exclusion of the Capri Class in the Nationals Regatta. We wish to have and deserve a reasonable response. We have no intention/desire of taking over the association and never implied doing so. Noone should be threatened by this discussion. There is no ill-will or desire to cause trouble to or with anyone, but we are frustrated.

Let's discuss the WYC. The facts are as follows:
1) The WYC Capri "fleet" is NOT a sanctioned one design organization under USSA or ISAF.
2) The WYC Capri "fleet" is NOT a member organization to this governing organization.
3) The WYC is historically reclusive and non-responsive intentionally.
I am not as quick to hold the WYC Capri group on high in their efforts to organize a regatta. It is not a brilliant feat or accomplishment to hold a regatta in your home waters where the majority of the participants are regular members to the sponsoring yacht club. Sometimes a governing body at some point has to responsibly flex its muscles to accomplish certain goals. This may include flexing its muscle in applying pressure to reign in an unresponsive/evasive group, and bring them into the fold of the sanctioned organization. These are growing pagns. In my opinion this association is well past the point of needed to bring that pressure to bare to the WYC Capri "fleet". It is probably not the popular opinion, but that is how support is sometimes defined I.e. no more hugs and kisses. As far as deferring the Capri nationals to the WYC in the name of playing nice, it is a real cop-out and is completely condradictory and wholly undermining in our efforts to broaden the Capri Class as it regards this association. Why should this sanctioned governing association allow a non-sanctioned, evasive, and non-responsive group to dictate what happens with an entire class? This is the question. We have made contact with over 100 Capri owners above the WYC "fleet" and are in the process of bringing them all into the association membership. What has been holding us back from being wholly successful has been minority of 30 Capris of the WYC "fleet" and their policy of being non-responsive, evasive, and reclusive. Can we just disregard them and move forward? No. There is too much of a conflict in the propriety of organization and venue. I am more than willing to do what is necessary to responsibly bring the WYC Capris into the fold as long as the board gives me the authority to do it. It can do nothing but benefit this association and the Capri Class. I wholly disagree that nothing can be done about the WYC, they are members to a USSA as a recognized yacht club under US Sailing governance and there are implications and recourse due to the conflict of propriety. I do not think the WYC or the Capri "fleet" will fail to respond and cooperate with US Sailing.

Responses?

Edited by - saribella on 03/18/2007 13:06:33

saribella
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
286 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2007 : 13:29:41

Duane,

If the WYC Capri Group would become members in good standing of this association as required to participate/hold an association-wide "nationals regatta", or solicit the entire association regatta for its annual venue; then this would essentially accomplish the goal. The question is the will and the means. I am not impugning the efforts of the board as was suggested, but what needs to be done and what has been done for support/inclusion of the class and the benefit of the association as a whole are in conflict; in my opinion.
Whether I am a voting member or non-voting member, or honorary or not has no bearing on this discussion. I am sorry if my position is uncomfortable for anyone, but this discussion was inevitable and necessary.

Edited by - saribella on 03/18/2007 13:31:52

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2007 : 14:17:21

Matthew, it seems to me that the questions you raised were legitimate, but they have been answered now, and, regardless of whether you agree with them completely, I think the answers are reasonable. Starting next year, the Capri 25s will be included in the National Regatta.

The WYC is apparently a strong local club, but I don't think it can fairly claim it's Capri 25 Regatta to be a national event. I don't think you can race only against local boats and a few boats near enough to trailer them there, and still call your event a national event. We move our National Regatta around the country, so that it will be accessible to all comers. At some time or another, our event will be held in a place that is accessible to the best C25/250/Capri sailors in the country. The WYC can't say that, because they don't want their regatta to move away. They want to keep it for themselves. It's their regatta, and they're entitled to do that, but calling it a national event is really a misnomer. It's really a well-organized local event.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Sometimes a governing body at some point has to responsibly flex its muscles to accomplish certain goals. This may include flexing its muscle in applying pressure to reign in an unresponsive/evasive group, and bring them into the fold of the sanctioned organization.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think it's way premature to be thinking about "flexing our muscles" and applying pressure to the WYC to bring them into the fold. They have a good thing going, and, if we mess it up for them, they'll probably resent it and resist us even more. I think there's a better way of handling it. They can continue to have their event, and we can continue to have our event, and we can invite them to participate in ours, and, eventually some of them might find that it's especially rewarding to participate in both events. If that happens, it would be a "win" for them, as well as a "win" for us. If we go to "war" with them, I don't foresee any interaction between the members of the WYC and this organization, but if we can make it a win-win, then it can work to the benefit of both organizations. If you think about it, this association has something of enormous value to offer the members of the WYC. We have this forum, with the knowledge, experience and ideas of all it's members. They could benefit from participating in this forum, and, if they can be persuaded to chat with us online, maybe some of them will decide they would also like to meet us and race with us, and share the fun at our regatta, as well as at their own regatta.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2007 : 15:13:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by saribella
 Sometimes a governing body at some point has to responsibly flex its muscles to accomplish certain goals. This may include flexing its muscle in applying pressure to reign in an unresponsive/evasive group, and bring them into the fold of the sanctioned organization.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If some National Association came into my backyard flexing its muscle to "reign me in", I'm fairly certain as to where I might stick their invitation.

It may be just me, but it appears that you are peeved at this association because the WYC doesn't want to play.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2007 : 15:19:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by saribella
 Duane,

If the WYC Capri Group would become members in good standing of this association as required to participate/hold an association-wide "nationals regatta", or solicit the entire association regatta for its annual venue; then this would essentially accomplish the goal. The question is the will and the means. I am not impugning the efforts of the board as was suggested, but what needs to be done and what has been done for support/inclusion of the class and the benefit of the association as a whole are in conflict; in my opinion.
Whether I am a voting member or non-voting member, or honorary or not has no bearing on this discussion. I am sorry if my position is uncomfortable for anyone, but this discussion was inevitable and necessary.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You are a member in full standing. I don't believe any comments as such were directed toward you. I've sent you an email to discuss all of this further.

Thanks,
Duane

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2007 : 17:09:49

My turn-----

I started the Yahoo Capri 25 group, we held more than 75 members before anything was brought up to the Catalina 25/250's to maybe include us in their association. I value every effort that all of the members of the association, and their time involved with bringing us in to the association.

Why should I pay my 22 bucks into the association, sponsor there forum with my ideas, and spend my time here? As most of you all know I love the Capri 25, I love to sail, I love to cruise, and I love to race my boat. I like nothing more than to be able to get on a forum, post a question about the boat, and get a quick response-----This is the whole reason for starting the Yahoo group 5 days after I purchased my Capri. WYC had a forum, they never answered my emails, my questions, and I felt that their had to be more people in my position.

Rick came into the Yahoo group as the 2nd or 3rd member, He and I have worked very hard on getting information about the Capri 25, We had to, I had a huge project to try and fix, and he was working with Kent Nelson at Catalina. I still remember when we had 10 members, and I still felt frustrated about the group, and the post that were coming in. I wanted to fold the Yahoo site then. Rick told me to hold out and see what happens

Rick was the one that brought me over to the 25/250's. the topic was started about the Capri 25's and the association, and I felt like it would be great for the Capri 25 class to be back under Catalina Yachts.

My Rant

I still fell like the yahoo group needs to be put to bed, Move the membership over here, have the members join the association or not, that's their call, but have an active forum. With 2 to 3 post on the Associations forum for the Capri 25 in the last 2 to 3 months makes me sick, all of the Capri 25 members are on the Yahoo site.

To fix a huge problem, drop the yahoo board and bring them over here to talk. This needs to be brought up with all of the members of the yahoo site, we need them all to want to move, and I see why we cant get them to, if they know that this is going to be the home for the Capri 25. (nationals included)

WYC--
So what I am reading about the Capri 25, and WYC. WYC has a Fleet #0 boats that are in one design, and without US sailing they can hold a nationals, or the WORLDS for that matter? We have 7 Capri 25's at our club, so I can hold a WORLDS? That's not right and we as Capri 25 members need to look into this. My father sailed a WORLDS, it was held in Scotland and had 54 boats from all over the world. Nationals is more like it, they got the WORLDS from Andree that came down from Canada sailing WEEBEESTEE.

I will come out and tell you all that I don't like how WYC's Capri 25 membership has handled any of the emails I have sent. I think its a joke that all of the Capri 25 members don't want to talk outside of there group. But they only need to walk down the dock to ask questions--I guess I just need to shut up about the problem and load my Capri 25 up on the trailer and race in the "WYC Capri 25 Worlds"

I have two words to sum this up "Corinthian Sport", they should have open arms just like the association has for all of us outside Capri 25's. We needed a home and have one in September of 2007 If the membership votes us in. We have a nationals in 2008 If the association votes us in. I will pay another 22 bucks to see what happens?

25/250 owners - This has been an ongoing battle for me for the last 3 years. I have done about everything to get the Capri 25 back out onto the net. The forum at WYC was taken down, the WYC National site was taken down, I even told WYC I would pay the dues to have it held open. The website at WYC is outdated and the only thing kept up is the "For Sale" section.

I posted the topic on the Yahoo site that I was done with this forum and association, I feel that 98% of the outside Capri 25 members write topic's on the Yahoo Group. The Nationals right now for me is not that big of an issue, Hell if someone needs some crew on a 25/250 let me know, the way Capri 25 members communicate is. Every month i post a topic on Capri 25 upgrades, I get nothing, I feel like when anything comes up about the Mainsheet or this association no one on the Yahoo site cares, I have tried to turn this around last year when again I wanted to cut off the yahoo group, and bring them over here.

I cant make people move sites, facts are that out of the 7 Capri 25's at our club, 3 of them race and 2 of them are members on the Yahoo site, and only one other besides myself has ever wrote anything on the yahoo site, and only myself is a member of the association.

SAD.

After 3 years of writing back and forth, reading 3 different forums for the same boat, and trying to get this boat back onto track, I can say that I am done for a while. Someone else needs to take charge of the boats success, I will be glad to hold my spot on the mainsheet if needed, and will continue to be the 33% of the Capri 25 association membership. If the Capri 25 membership feels like I need to stick it out, and hold some kind of office for next year, then I will be there to support the Association.

I mean none of this to offend anyone, these are my feelings about the Capri 25, the Yahoo group, the International Association, and WYC

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/18/2007 : 21:26:24

Matthew and Chris... When you consider that some 6000 Catalina 25s were built, the participation on this site and in the national regatta is pretty miniscule. Not one of the dozen C-25 owners I've known or met have participated in either (except Commodore Jim and Gary N. in San Diego). Comparatively, I think you'll find a much higer percentage on, for example, the C-34 site, but that's because a higher percentage of C-34 owners are serious about cruising on their boats. Most C-25s are just oversized casual day-sailers, and many owners think of them as nothing more than that--totally utilitarian, sorta like Chevies.

As for WYC, with their 35-boat Capri fleet, it's hard to imagine that many of them would want to pull their boats out and trek to Cleveland to meet up with what--one or two other boats (maybe?). They have the critical mass for better class sailing right there on their lake than this association is likely to ever create (based on our experience with C-25s and 250s). This site is populated by the exceptions.

I think we should accept that the C-25 and C-250 are family cruisers, and this association primarily reflects that. The Capri 25 was designed to probe the market for J-24s and Merit 25s... It's an affordable racer-cruiser that compromises comfort (all things being relative) for performance, compared to its brethren here. That's why WYC has a robust racing fleet--just as Noroton Yacht Club where I used to live has a huge J-24 fleet.

Where am I headed with this??? Mostly, just toward the conclusion that maybe we don't really know whether the interests of the Capri owners are compatible with the interests of the Catalina owners. As a group, one-design racing might be just that much more important to the Capri folks (as it should be)... Face it--Catalina owners barely know what one-design racing is about until a dozen or so (out of 6000+, or .2%) get to the national event--and most don't care. Maybe we're different animals.

(Caveat: I'm no longer one of either group, but my heart is still on a C-25, knocking around Long Island Sound with my late Admiral and good friends, having sailed and raced more kinds of boats than I can count from the age of 8, 54 years ago.)

So, let's look at this calmly and objectively. No skin is about to be lost, and all will be well no matter who decides what. This is sailing--how bad can it be??

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/18/2007 21:27:05

existentialsailor
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1180 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2007 : 07:02:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle

As for WYC, with their 35-boat Capri fleet, it's hard to imagine that many of them would want to pull their boats out and trek to Cleveland to meet up with what--one or two other boats (maybe?). They have the critical mass for better class sailing right there on their lake than this association is likely to ever create (based on our experience with C-25s and 250s). This site is populated by the exceptions.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

WYC's Capri fleet also has the only industry support with the sail makers.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2007 : 07:44:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
WYC's Capri fleet also has the only industry support with the sail makers.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

They may have support now but what does that really mean? Sailmakers work for cash. If we show a potential for any number of lofts, North, Quantum, Sobstad, UK - they will be more than happy to start cutting sails for a Capri 25, creating tuning guides, etc.

Right now the 35 boats up there have a particular loft they go to for any number of reasons - I would guess locality being one. That only gives that loft the de facto "number one sail for the capri 25 class" it doesn't mean the other guys won't work with us.

There are tons of things we can do to bring multiple sailmakers into the mix and completely negate their so-called sponsorship.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2007 : 09:29:54

Dave's issue is a healthy part of this discussion and raises the question of compatibility between the traditional C25/250 association and desires of the Capri owners.

While there is nothing written in stone saying that the traditions (mostly non-racing) of the Association can't move more towards racing it wouldn't happen without pain.

In the past, the membership has been loath to subsidize racing, having the attitude that if any thing is left over from low dues, then it can be had... but dues increases wouldn't be tolerated to support racers. Right now it seems that sponsorships and racers themselves have supported their financial needs and that seems to be working fine.

An all racing board would work... as long as it didn't disregard the reality that the vast majority of members are as Dave described. The charter mandates the promotion of all interest. An all racing focus was tried once around '95 and saw a major rebellion.

Quite frankly, I sense a character variance between the Capri design that is greater than exist between C25 and 250 that will likely provide a continual struggle.

The Association has been engaged to help fight a battle that should/shouldn't be its fight? Several years ago, the Association was asked/pressured to join an All Catalina Association. The officers labored over the question and decided no, based on the strong belief that the big boys were simply looking for bodies to defray the greater cost of their low numbers. The big boys for example demanded equal space compared to C22, which had thousands more members and subscriptions causing C22 to go off and serve its members specific needs.

Based on where we have been the last ten years and where I think Capri has been... I see incompatibility. If the C25/250 National Association wishes to change to suit the Capri nature as Steve suggest it can do so but probably not without some change pains.

It seems to me, that by default WYC has become the defacto nationals perhaps for the same reasons that our nationals struggles to see these boats transported long distances for a weekend of racing. Heck, it almost seems to me that Cleveland is becoming the defacto nationals for the C25/250 for the same reason and it isn't without some sort of rational thought that the largest venue shouldn't get that honor as long as they are not exclusionary. Why fight this battle against a group who may only be guilty of doing the natural thing in the circumstances that exist?

I don't know for certain why we are in it... if I did, it might be a battle worth fighting but lacking clear understanding, I'm for getting out of it and terminating the relationship with Capri. Convince me otherwise.

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2007 : 11:04:44

Ergo, the probationary period. The sitting officers at the time simply desired to offer all Capri 25 owners a home, but a home based upon the same parameters as already existed for the 25 and 250 owners (i.e., Mainsheet inclusion/subscription, website, forum, participation in an annual national regatta). No less, no more. The association has no real leverage and cannot, and should not, try to force participation. Here is a place to come, we'd like to have your participation, but you are under no obligation. The risk has always been, based on less than enthusiatic responses from WYC officers to the association's multitude of invitations, that the WYC members would overwhelm this board and the voting membership of this association and would then fundamentally change this association's focus, direction and financial priorities. This membership does not need nor does it desire another proxy battle.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 03/19/2007 : 17:18:29

As a new member who has only this thread to learn from (does that make me an objective bystander?) I would observe that:

This association has no control over the WYC. Let the WYC thing go. Board, don't recommend that our Capri 25s go to the WYC regatta. It ticks our Capris off. Forget the WYC.

In 2008 we should, and sounds like we will, have a Capri class in the nationals. Be patient you Capris, your time is coming. We will crown a Capri 25 national champion. Heck if there are only three of you in the first 2008 nationals you are guaranteed a a top three finish! Once we crown the official Capri national champ others will want to join the race too.

No matter what happens, let the Corinthian spirit live here. C25s, C250s and Capri 25s supporting each other.

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.