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new #3 (110 jib) thoughts

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Heartbeat
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/07/2007 : 17:18:33

Ok, so I am thinking about buying a new #3. (A #3 is a slang term for a semi-heavy weather sail for use in racing.) I am thinking of buying a 110 size and am looking at options. For the record, I am replacing a (softly used) mid-80s dacron 110 from a stock short rig. The sail used to be ok, but the boat just won't point with it anymore and it is very streched. Last year we used it in at least 4 races, and often pushed the #1 (155, we don't run a #2) long past the comfort zone as the #3 sucks.

So what type (and from where) of #3 should I (maybe) buy?

Is 110 a good size? Should I buy a 115 or 120, and screw it if the wind is too strong?

North (locally) quoted a 7oz dacron 110 for a bit more than I wanted to pay - especially for dacron.

Should I buy a 5oz dacron sail?

Should I but a pentex or kevlar sail? (Remember, it's going to sit in the bag most of the time.) I run a kevlar #1, and that sail is beautiful, but...

Thoughts, sail size, material advice, loft recommendations, musings, and general rambling accepted.

Thanks.

Matt in Detroit

former Captain of Heartbeat
Catalina 25 Tall
#4816

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2007 : 09:18:48

I've raced on Lake St Cair for 18 years and rarely use my #3 because it doesn't provide enough speed on the downwind leg of the race. Also, as you are probably aware, the winds in the Detroit area are unpredicable and frequently go from a howling gale, at the start of a race, to a pleaseant zepher before the finish, or vica versa. So I will usually run my #2 (a rather flat cut, Dacron 150%) and put one or two reefs in the main. Feeding the crew a big dumpling stew before sitting them down on the windward rail while steering with one eye on the inclinometer also helps. So to answer your question I would suggest investing in a new #2 built by a local sailmaker (Kent, Boston or UK come to mind) and save the 110% for the true white knuckle days when a few degrees, more or less, of pointing ability are not as important as finishing the race in one piece. A quality #3 may be a necessity for racing on the big waters of the ocean, gulf or the larger Great Lakes but in our great little lake of St Clair I think it's not as critical. (Now watch the weather make a liar out of me this year. Which is always a possibility in Michigan. After all like our state motto says "MIchigan!-If you don't like the weather-wait a minute")

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2007 : 09:33:36

I agree. We mostly use the 135% when racing as get the most bang for the area especially downwind. Our next down was a 100% which we only use on in a really fresh breeze (or the blade we have). Ordered a new 115% and it's great for the main SF Bay on a windy day but doesn't quite give me the uumf needed for racing unless it's humming out there. Maybe my mistake...he cut it a bit high...I might take it back and have him make the foot lower. We get the same situation here where you hang on at the start and wind up ghosting across the finish in the evening.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5935 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2007 : 10:02:59

You suffer from the same affliction as most of us. You want the best equipment available, but you don't want to pay those big prices. The problem with most discount sails is that they are generally made of a lower quality sailcloth that doesn't have as tight a weave as top quality dacron sailcloth. A #3 made of low quality dacron probably won't hold it's shape very long, and you'll soon be back where you are now.

I would suggest a couple of alternatives. First, I think the best choice, from a racing standpoint, would be to buy a good laminated sail. A #3 is a high wind sail, and that's exactly where a laminated sail will help you the most. It won't stretch as much as a dacron sail. On a boat the size of a C25, you can reduce the stretchiness factor by using good quality low-stretch halyards, and by constantly re-trimming the dacron jib with every puff and lull, but that's obviously not the ideal situation. One of my main aversions to laminated sails is that they don't last nearly as long as a dacron sail, but, if you'll only use it about 4 times a year, it could last a long time.

The other alternative is to buy a good quality dacron sail. Your jib trimmer will have to pay close attention to sail trim, but it can be done successfully. Good quality dacron will retain it's shape reasonably well. I haven't priced laminated sails recently, but it used to be that they cost the same as dacron sails, but they didn't last nearly as long. If there still isn't much price differential, I don't think there's any question that a laminated sail would be the best choice in this case. If there is a significant differential, then it's simply a matter of your budgetary limitations. You can be competitive with a good quality dacron jib. Most C25 racers use dacron jibs, but if someone has a laminated jib, they'll have at least a slight advantage over a dacron jib.

Last fall I bought a new set of dacron sails for my boat from Cruising Direct, a subsidiary of North. North claims that they are the same sails, made of the same sailcloth as the sails made under their own brand name, but they don't provide the same services that add to the cost. When you buy North sails, they'll measure your boat for you, and they'll send an employee to sail with you and show you how to use your sails. They don't do those things with Cruising Direct sails.

The best time to order new sails is at a major sailboat show in the fall. That's the off-season for sailmakers, and they want to keep their employees busy during that period of time, so they offer great boat show discounts.

So far as the specific size and design of your sail is concerned, I'd suggest you discuss that with your sailmaker. Tell them where and how you plan to use them. They know a heck of a lot more about sails than we do, and can be very helpful. I'd suggest you discuss sail design with a sailmaker at a big sailing center like Annapolis, even though you would probably want to order your sails through a sail loft that is closer to your locale.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/08/2007 : 10:31:39

Not knowing your venue... what are your thoughts on adding a quality #2 (135) to your inventory instead of replacing your semi-functional 110?

How many of the days when the 150 is too much would be better served by a 135? [I realize this is the very question you may be asking.] Reason I say this is that I've always been of the opinion that a three headsail inventory was important for a racing program. Without the right sail for the wind, you're handicapped. (but I could be wrong)

>"Should I but a pentex or kevlar sail?"

Well, that's the best stuff, but only you and your wallet know the answer!

>"Should I buy a 5oz dacron sail?" IMHO: Not in a 110... that's your heavy air sail.

Have you asked over at Sailing Anarchy? There are lots of racing-oriented folks over there and quite a few from the Great Lakes. The forum can get somewhat nasty at times but there's lots of information to be had if you overlook that element.

Do you run a spinnaker ?

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/08/2007 : 11:11:38

What's your range of wind speeds?

15 and under 155%
15 to 25 135%
25 and over 110%

I also have a 60 in case I get caught out.

You would probably be better off with a good #2, you'll use it more.

Edited by - on

Heartbeat
Navigator

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Response Posted - 04/09/2007 : 07:31:47

Yes, we do fly a spinnaker. In recent years, it has been a light to medium air thing and pull it down at around 16 (true), and definately by 20.

Jim, you fly a 135 all the way to 25 true? I am usually looking at pulling the 110 down at 25 true.

I'll look into a #2...

Matt

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2007 : 07:47:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Renzo
 I would suggest investing in a new #2 built by a local sailmaker (Kent, Boston or UK come to mind)...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The UK loft switched to Doyle. It is the same location, people, Dacron sail fabric, and sail cutting software. The only real thing that changed was the name on the building and the very high end sail material they now use.

Edited by - on

Kip C
Navigator

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243 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2007 : 07:52:09

What are the thoughts on using a slightly used J24 150 as a #2, since they can be found regularly and at a decent price.

I know Duane list one for his boat in the swap meet. How has it worked for you Duane? (Assuming he'll read this thread)

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 04/09/2007 : 09:42:16

It is great for cruising, but the shape isn't what you are looking for when it comes to racing. That is very understandable considering it is made for a frac rigged boat that has an inboard sheeted genoa track. It also really isn't a number two - it works out to about a 140 or so in the foot and has a bit less sail area b/c the hoist isn't 100% to the top.

If you want to go with a number 3 I would suggest one of two things.

Switch over to a spinnaker boat then your size doesn't mean squat. You will need a quality caliber bow person though.

or - if you can only race JAM - switch to a tuff luff or other jibtrack system. It will cost you a bit more but you will be able to do sail changes without losing a headsail--155 downwind, 110 upwind.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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Response Posted - 04/09/2007 : 10:48:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Jim, you fly a 135 all the way to 25 true? I am usually looking at pulling the 110 down at 25 true.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Matt and Jim, I notice that you both have tall rigs. Are you basing your jib selections with or with out a reefed main; and if reefed is it a single or double reef. Also am I correct in assuming that you are both quoting wind speeds in Knots.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/09/2007 : 12:32:14

I have a standard rig.

I don't have a wind speed meter.

I can fly the 135 with reefed main in strong winds with lots of whitecaps.

If the boat starts heeling past 40 degrees is when I make sail changes.

I have a flattening reef, 1st and 2nd reefs on my main. I tend to do that before changing my hanked on sails.

My point is I use the 155 and 135 all the time. The 110 a few days per year. The 60 once in a couple of years.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/09/2007 : 13:57:00

Those windspeed ranges are lower for a tall rig. Moreover, even on a standard rig boat, if you use those big sails at the upper limits of those windspeed ranges, the boat won't be sailing very efficiently. If you want the boat to sail efficiently, you need to reduce sail area earlier than those windspeed ranges suggest.

Edited by - on

Heartbeat
Navigator

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Response Posted - 04/09/2007 : 15:35:12

>It is great for cruising, but the shape isn't what you are looking for when
>it comes to racing. That is very understandable considering it is made for a
>frac rigged boat that has an inboard sheeted genoa track. It also really
>isn't a number two - it works out to about a 140 or so in the foot and has a
>bit less sail area b/c the hoist isn't 100% to the top.

I could not have put this better myself. I want a sail that will be fully hoisted on my tall rig.

>If you want to go with a number 3 I would suggest one of two things.

I am all ears.

>Switch over to a spinnaker boat then your size doesn't mean squat. You will
>need a quality caliber bow person though.

We are spinnaker rigged. 3 kites, rigging, a mast track, a pole - the works.

My best bow person is me. But since it's my boat, I like to drive. ;-)
We had two in training last year. Hopefully both come back.

>or - if you can only race JAM - switch to a tuff luff or other jibtrack >system. It will cost you a bit more but you will be able to do sail changes
>without losing a headsail--155 downwind, 110 upwind.

Got a tuff luff and dual jib halyards. We do headsail changes.

Thanks for the thoughts, Duane!

I asked around and the Cal 25 racers around here don't use #2s. Personally, I'll probably stick with the #1 / #3 setup.

Now back to deciding materials and a loft.

Matt in Detroit

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/09/2007 : 16:18:58

Call the Sobstad loft in Cleveland. Richard does a great job and can get you what you need at a very reasonable price.

He also built the sails for the 1st and 2nd place boats overall last year, so the cut of his jib, as they say is pretty darn good.

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 04/09/2007 : 17:35:00

additional info: The pentex challenge cloth should be reasonably priced. If you are going straight from a 1 to a 3, you will want a 100 or 110. That is a good conversation to have with a sailmaker they will guide you in your decision. Most guys regardless of location have sailed just about everywhere and will help you based on local conditions.

Edited by - on

Heartbeat
Navigator

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Response Posted - 04/09/2007 : 18:10:18

>Matt and Jim, I notice that you both have tall rigs. Are you basing your jib
>selections with or with out a reefed main; and if reefed is it a single or
>double reef. Also am I correct in assuming that you are both quoting wind
>speeds in Knots.

Drop the #1, go to the #3, then reef the main. Jeebus, is there any mainsail left after a second reef?

I have reefed the main prior to dropping the #1, but only when double handing with an old main. The new main drives nicely, and provides good shape with the traveller down.

I am quoting (estimated or bouy data) true wind speeds in knots. I am aware that my estimates are a touch high when the wind picks up. I am working on it, but since energy (what the boat feels) is the square of velocity (my cheek), it's a tricky estimate above 16 (whitecaps.)

Matt in Detroit

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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Response Posted - 04/10/2007 : 09:00:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Drop the #1, go to the #3, then reef the main. Jeebus, is there any mainsail left after a second reef?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Didn't mean to sound critical Matt, just wanted to be sure I was comparing apples to apples. I tend to carry a larger jib and rely on reefing the main because I'm usually racing short handed and lose too much time trying to do headsail changes. The result is that I'm over powered on the upwind leg some times but I think I make up for it downwind. Also I have a FK standard rig and that may make a big difference in how my boat handles in a blow, with or without a reef.

Anyway that's what makes sailboat races. And it's also what makes this forum so great -the oportunity to see how everyone else views the same issue. Maybe some day we'll get a chance to race against eachother and compare notes I think the Clinton River Catalina Assoc. is going to sponser some invitational races in Anchor Bay this year, I'll send you the NOR when it's available.

Edited by - on

Heartbeat
Navigator

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Response Posted - 04/10/2007 : 18:30:36

(Mostly off topic - sorry to hijack...)

Hey, Renzo I would like to join your fleet this year, and I would really enjoy racing against another Cat25 - it's been 10 years! (I can't even remember who won!)

I agree that it may be a tall/standard thing. It may also be the depth of the reef. I had my sailmaker (UK - Florida Gulfcoast, a good friend) make my single reef kinda deep. If I am putting in the reef, I need the boat to stand up.

Be sure to send out that NOR. Anchor Bay is a good way for us, but not impossible. I'll drop an email to see about joining the fleet this year. :-))

Matt

Edited by - on

Heartbeat
Navigator

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USA
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Response Posted - 04/13/2007 : 19:20:29

Well, we have decided on a 7oz dacron 110 from CD. The big thing for us is that it beats our budget (1k) by a couple hundo. I wanted hi-tech, but it's a #3...

Thanks for the help.

Matt

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