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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Your Upwind Performance

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bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/27/2007 : 14:09:17

Just wondering.. It seems that I can never get Wind Dancer up to 'hull speed' when going upwind. For example, yesterday I was out playing around with sail trim. The wind was steady at about 25kts (according to shoreline weather station) and I was sailing cross-current. The waves were pretty big, as I was hobby-horsing a lot and getting very wet from the spray, but the best I could squeeze out was 5.8 kts (SOG). Surprisingly (to me anyway) that was with the traveler down and the main sheeted out until it was luffing. When I sheeted in I would consistently slow down. I had a 110 up and was reefed (only one reef point). I don't have a backstay adjuster but the cunningham and the vang were on full (also - I have just tuned the rigging so everything is real tight). Beam reach home was fun with sustained speeds of 7.5-7.8 kts so no complaints there.

What is your experience with upwind performance? How did you get it?

Bill B
Wind Dancer
#4036 84 SR/FK
San Francisco Bay

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2007 : 14:30:05

Traveler down is correct in strong wind. So is sheeting in just enough to fill the sail, and not hardening beyond that. You don't mention a reef--you were probably substantially overcanvassed for that wind. When you relaxed the main, you were probably getting some twist so the upper part was luffing and the lower part was still driving. Sheeting in and filling that full main can increase heel to the point where your jib is no longer working as efficiently, and that's your primary driving sail. A reef would have allowed you to keep the main flatter, causing less heel, and thereby letting the jib work better.

That said, the big chop was probably also holding you back. The C-25 doesn't have the mass of a 30-footer to plow through waves, and the fact that you were "hobby-horsing" indicates that you weren't. Each wave was pushing back on you. For SF Bay, if you aren't set up for reefing or don't do it, I'd suggest that as your next priority, for speed as well as comfort.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/27/2007 15:28:05

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2007 : 09:51:14

Bill, I think 5.8 knots in those conditions was an excellent speed. 25 knots is a lot of wind. I would surely have the 110 up (as you did) and probably 1st reef as well. As Dave pointed out, bone jarring wind waves can really kill the speed on a C25. The trick for speed is to crack off a bit (as you did), ease the main a bit (as you did) and become a very active helmsman steering around the waves. I've been working on learning how to do this for years, the best I can say is never take a steep face straight on.

Also, how heeled over were you? 15 degrees to 20 is optimal. SOme rail meat really helps in these conditions, or hike with a tiller extender as I do.

Edited by - JimB517 on 05/28/2007 09:53:27

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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983 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2007 : 10:24:11

The C25 sails fastest on a beam to a broad reach, so you're unlikely to reach hull speed close-hauled. Somewhere there are polar diagrams for the C25 that show fastest points of sail. 5.8 is outstanding.

Brooke

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bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2007 : 11:07:13

Thx Guys - I was wondering if there was something more I should be doing. Those waves are nasty and I'll have to work on the steering around them part, for sure. I would **love** to see those polars - as I'm sure we all would! What was really interesting was that when I was sheeted in tight with the traveler in the center I was only doing about 4.5 kts - 'exciting' sailing with lots of heeling and so forth but just slogging. As I started to 'depower' I gained speed quite rapidly. While I know this to be true in my head it is quite another to see it on the Speedo! It is just so counter-intuitive.

Regarding how much was I heeling... hard to say and I never looked at the heel-o-meter thingy (clinometer?) on the compass. Not excessive I think - the rails were nowhere near the water and the helm felt pretty neutral with a slight weather helm. I was solo so I didn't have any 'rail meat'. Actually I find it easier to play around with sail trim when single-handed because then I don't drive anyone crazy with my fiddling with the sails. Dave, to your point, what was most interesting to me was that when I did sheet in the main - just enough to keep it from flapping (it wasn't violent enough to be flogging :)) - I consistently lost 0.2-0.3 kts in speed. I guess just sheeting in that much made me heel too much. I must say that I hated it when the main was flapping like that and preferred it sheeted in to stop the flapping. I'm not sure I could sail very long like that even though it gave me the most speed. I wonder what would have happened if I had just dropped the main altogether? Any thoughts/experiences in 25 kts with just a 110 up?

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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1561 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2007 : 11:22:38

In those conditioins, I sheet in the jib to try and control the flapping main. There is a fine line between keeping the main from flapping and loosing speed. Cheers.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2007 : 11:30:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bbriner
 ...Any thoughts/experiences in 25 kts with just a 110 up?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It's worth a try... It'll demonstrate the degree to which the foresail is the main driver of the C-25. (For comparison, try main alone--you'll be amazed at the difference.) If you want speed, I still suggest reefing. But I've sailed on a 130 alone, and a partially rolled up 130, and gotten very nice speed in stiff, gusty winds. You can't point quite as well, and tacking takes a little more finesse. (Let the sail backwind before releaseing it.) I've even done about 4 knots with around 15 degrees of heel beam reaching under sail cover alone! (In that case, jibing is the only option.)

With your traveler centered (as little and almost useless as it is), you were slowed partly because the sail was too full--it was acting more like a wind-sock than an air foil. If you have telltales in the right spots, you can see the problem with the airflow.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2007 : 11:34:06

I agree that you were sailing very well in those conditions. You can reach hull speed going to windward in a C25, but not in heavy chop. You can do it on a smooth inland lake, when all the powerboats are gone at the end of the season.

Reefing helps keep the boat on it's feet, and helps it point to windward, but in most conditions, it's more likely to reduce boat speed, which is a good thing when you're trying to beat to windward against a strong wind. It reduces the tendency of the boat to leap off the backs of choppy waves and smash down with a loud crash and much spray. The only time I would reef the mainsail primarily for the purpose of increasing raw boatspeed would be if the boat was so overpowered that it was no longer able to make forward progress, but when that happens, reaching hull speed won't even be a remote possibility.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2007 : 13:26:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...Reefing helps keep the boat on it's feet, and helps it point to windward, but in most conditions, it's more likely to reduce boat speed...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Singlehanding a C-25 in 25 knots, I respectfully disagree unless you have a shiny new mylar/kevlar main that's like a piece of aluminum. The jib is too important, and it can't do its best work at 40 degrees of heel.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/28/2007 13:28:51

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2007 : 13:25:06

Bill I've been working on improving close hauled sailing too and the racing has helped a lot because you can compare to the boats around you. Two things you can do: release the mainsheet until the main just starts to get wobbly up by the luff & use your topping lift to lift the boom a little making a twist in the upper part of the main so that it spills off some wind up there. Good luck. In gusty conditions we sometime do the fishman reef thing playing the mainsheet a lot.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2007 : 13:33:11

Sailed our C25 for 11 years on the Bay. When windy, we put a single reef in the main and used our 85% jib and went faster.

Dave's right, on a masthead rig the jib is THE driver. He's right, try sailing with just the jib and then just the main - the jib alone will take you all over, the main alone is soooo sloooow.

We used to come down the Slot from Pt. Blunt to Treasure Island on just the jib. Try it, it's a much nicer ride.

Reef the main, reef the main, reef the main in our summer winds, you'll go faster.

If your main was fully up in those conditions and you let it out as you describe, it was most likely backwinding a bit. That is called a "Fisherman's Reef" and will avoid getting you heeled over too much. If you have to do that to keep on your feet, you should, guess what??? r________f

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 05/29/2007 13:34:24

bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2007 : 16:50:20

Paul - I don't have my topping lift back into the cockpit yet. I tried something like that by releasing the vang. I noticed a slight drop in speed when I did that. Stu - yes, the main was back-winded as the jib was super tight and close. It had gone beyond back-winded though and the whole sail was flapping - but not violently. It wasn't flogging but it was really irritating. I only have a single reef point, which is about 3 or 4 feet above the foot, and yes, I was reefed!

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bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2007 : 16:51:40

Paul - I forgot to ask... does using the topping lift produce a different sail shape than releasing the vang? I've never tried what you suggest.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2007 : 18:30:04

You need to release the vang before trimming the topping lift--the two work opposite each other, and trimming the topping lift essentially exaggerates the effect of releasing the vang.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/29/2007 18:31:08

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 10:32:50

Dave said it. Just to add: put in a little vang after you've adjused the topping lift.

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Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 12:51:06

Bill

With your 110 and a reef, you should be fine. Since the main driver is the jib, when it's windy, pull the fairlead aft, it'll spill wind off the top of the jib and reduce heeling. I'm not a fan of playing with the topping lift except in light air. (Many folks just don't understand the consistency of the winds here on The Bay - playing the topping lift isn't really appropriate here, whether racing or cruising.) Just tighten the vang when it's windy even with a reef. The reef flattens the sail anyway, and the vang helps a bit more. If you release the vang the boom rises and the sail gets deeper - you do NOT want that when it's windy - make it as flat as you can.

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 05/30/2007 12:55:15

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 14:02:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Brooke Willson
 The C25 sails fastest on a beam to a broad reach, so you're unlikely to reach hull speed close-hauled. Somewhere there are polar diagrams for the C25 that show fastest points of sail. 5.8 is outstanding.

Brooke
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If anybody has polars - I'd be interested in seeing them...and posting them here

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bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 14:18:04

Thx Guys - Once I get WD put back together (see my post in the General section about 'Replacing your Pintles') I'll try some of these suggestions. (Note that post was from our Memorial Day sail; this one was from Saturday prior to M-Day. On M-Day I was only trying to get home in 1 piece!).

Anyone have any idea on where we might obtain the polars?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 17:00:49

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/30/2007 17:03:37

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