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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

New Balanced Rudder Crack

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Tom P
Deckhand

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USA
5 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/26/2007 : 21:38:00

In July of 2006, I purchased a new fibreglass balanced rudder from CD for my 1985 C25, and installed it myself with no problems. (by the way it performs beautifully, as advertised)

This past May, I noticed a zig-zag shaped crack running vertically along the leading edge between the upper and lower pintles. In some areas it looks like the gel-coat has spalled and I can see the dark under-surface.

Has anyone else experienced a problem with this product? And, does this seem like a problem that I (and Catalina Yachts) should be concerned about?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2007 : 21:48:43

Mine was fine for four years before I sold Passage... Can you tell (with a pin or something) if the crack goes through the shell or is just a gelcoat "spider crack"? Have you ever left it in the sun when it wasn't in the water? CD warns that can cause the foam core to swell and split the shell, especially if you use a dark bottom paint on it.

Edited by - on

Tom P
Deckhand

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USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2007 : 20:18:27

Thanks for your ideas, Dave. The cracks are relatively wide and deep, I'll probe it with a nail to see how deep they go. No, I never left it in the sun...took extreme care with it in and out of the water.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2007 : 22:35:28

Have you talked to CD? Is there a warranty (such as one year--rapidly coming to a close)?

Edited by - on

Cate
Navigator

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199 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2007 : 06:46:49

When I talked to Lowell at CD about replacing my broken rudder (original wood and fiberglass), he said the fiberglass rudders were made like a "clamshell" with two pieces fit together. He said they were suseptable to the same moisture invasions as the wood encased rudders and that even the foam could expand. He said they could not be dropped, bonked or banged as this would cause cracks. Not sure why your rudder is showing a zig zag crack Tom, because it sounds like you have taken very good care of it. Just thought I would share some insight into how they are made.

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DaveC25
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2007 : 07:43:31

You wouldn't have happened to hit a crab trap line or anything, did you? That's what did my last rudder in. It put a large crack in it when the rudder flexed from the trap trying to hold the boat by the rudder. I ended up re-glassing the rudder and then installing two stainless strips on each side along the leading edge and then through-bolting them. The rudder is strong now, so the next time I'm sure the gundgeons will be ripped off. Hmmm.... maybe I should think about that some more....

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SJ
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2007 : 11:13:22

I have/had the same issue with my rudder. It is the orig balanced type and the leading edge has seperated at the joint. I ground out a VEE groove and filled it with west expoxy with a micro fiber binder. Doesn't look all that apealing but I think it is at least sealed.

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Tom P
Deckhand

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USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2007 : 21:18:13

(Hopefully, if I did it right, there is a photo of the crack and the rudder.)

Actually, I have taken good care of the rudder. It has never been dropped or left out in the sun; and there is no evidence of impact from another boat. I know that It's never snagged a submerged line or other obstacle.

I think I'll pursue the warranty issue a little further before I attempt any repairs.

Thanks, again. If something else comes to mind, please let me know.
--T

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2007 : 22:36:06

If the crack is open, that suggests swelling of the foam core--perhaps a manufacturing flaw. If heat from the sun caused it, then I suspect the crack would close when the rudder cooled. I doubt that water would cause the foam to swell--either heat or too much foam are the likely culprits. The zig-zag suggests you don't have a split in the clamshell seam--that would be more of a straight line. And I don't think an impact at the lower end (fore or aft) would cause the crack between the pintles... However, I'm wondering if two pintles with straps that weren't spread enough to comfortably fit around the rudder, and then were jammed on anyway, might do that... (I had to have the pintles from the original rudder spread apart and bent slightly by a metal shop to fit the new blade--if I had rammed them on, something would have given. The straps were really heavy!)

Just some thoughts...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/28/2007 22:37:59

bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2007 : 09:32:32

I had a crack around the top edge of my rudder and the local boatyard owner (who is quite experienced at this as you might imagine) told me that I HAD to fix it (Yes we should be concerned - refer to the post here about a broken rudder). He had me glass all around the edges then use 3M marine filler to make it smooth. After doing that it required painting but it looks pretty good now and is much stronger than before since the 'clamshell' is sealed tight.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2007 : 11:04:51

That's it! I'm inspecting every square inch of my rudder this week-wend!

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2007 : 12:01:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 That's it! I'm inspecting every square inch of my rudder this week-wend!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'll be extensively field testing mine!

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2007 : 10:45:04

Let's see...a boat goes in water ...water usually is subjected to sun...water sometimes freezes in northern climes...Lets turn these criteria over to the Catalina design team and have them come up with a rudder that will survive the design perameters...

Seems that they were unable to do so since they advise that their rudder not be subjected to hot sun,(does it come any other way)...don't let it freeze since water that may have permeated its waterproof barrier will do just that ...drop it,no-no...store it outside, no- no...use it in water free of obstacles that it might snag on, no-no...sounds like this rudder was designed by the renowned designers of the C-25 swing team

Val on Calista # 3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2007 : 10:59:18

I hate to say it, but Hunter and Macgregor seem to have been far ahead of Catalina in rudder designs--even comparing to the C-250. Both have had balanced designs with proper foils that kick up and lift out of the water--what you want on an otherwise beachable, trailerable boat.

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2007 : 16:08:51

>"Hunter and Macgregor seem to have been far ahead of Catalina in rudder designs--"

Well, they may kick up, but they also have their flaws... the tiller-to rudder connection on the M26 I sailed on would twist about 15 degrees under load... maybe more. (mostly in the rudder post and kick-up assembly)

I have the old original 'version 1.0' rudder on my C25 and have no complaints about excessive helm force or steering response. IMHO: If A C25 rig is properly balanced the rudder should be very light... maybe 5 degrees of weather helm at the most. If you're fighting the rudder on one of these boats, something else is wrong.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2007 : 17:04:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClamBeach
 I have the old original 'version 1.0' rudder on my C25 and have no complaints about excessive helm force or steering response. IMHO: If A C25 rig is properly balanced the rudder should be very light... maybe 5 degrees of weather helm at the most. If you're fighting the rudder on one of these boats, something else is wrong.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Agreed--I had a light helm with the original, but found the balanced design to have a much nicer feel and less flutter. But neither the original nor the balanced were very good at going into a beach or a shallow ramp. With a swing keel (C-25) and centerboard (C-250), you'd think Catalina would have offered a viable kick-up rudder. (I had a fin--it didn't matter to me.)

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DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2007 : 10:47:26

Well, I looked my rudder over and it seems to be in reasonably good shape except for some rough area just above the water line, maybe a quick, imperfect repair.
I'm thinking very seriously about ordering that kick-up rudder though, I've touched bottom with my rudder a few times where my wing keel didn't. Is the rudder deeper than the wing?

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2007 : 11:49:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 I'm thinking very seriously about ordering that kick-up rudder though, I've touched bottom with my rudder a few times where my wing keel didn't. Is the rudder deeper than the wing?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As someone who has run aground twice so far this season (mud and silt bottom), I take comfort in knowing that my one ton cast iron fin keel will hit before my much more fragile rudder will.

Additionally, my last boat had a kickup rudder and I don't know how many times I cursed it and threatened to permanently through bolt it due to it kicking up at the most unopportune times.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2007 : 12:18:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Additionally, my last boat had a kickup rudder and I don't know how many times I cursed it and threatened to permanently through bolt it due to it kicking up at the most unopportune times.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I had the same feeling about my Daysailer rudder, but the Ida kickup design sounds good--they have a shear-pin that supposedly doesn't allow an inadvertent kick-up until the rudder hits something that breaks the pin. Then the unknown in the equation is the soundness of the gudgeons--whether they'll hold under the force that breaks the pin. (If the bolts are sound, that shouldn't be an issue.)

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2007 : 13:50:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 I had the same feeling about my Daysailer rudder, but the Ida kickup design sounds good--they have a shear-pin that supposedly doesn't allow an inadvertent kick-up until the rudder hits something that breaks the pin...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I wonder if that pin will hold when you are close reaching in a stiff wind and a big ol' ball of seaweed takes up residence on the rudder. It happened to me about five times just yesterday and the pressures on the rudder were fairly extreme.

Edited by - on

Tom P
Deckhand

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USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2007 : 21:34:53

This rudder does not SEEM TO BE of the "clam shell" design. At least there are no visible straight line joints, like my original rudder, which seam WAS showing signs of separation when I replaced it.

If I remember right, the pintle straps went on fairly easy, a nice snug fit; and I was careful not to over tighten the bolts. The crack does appear to be relatively deep, penetrating the gel-coat.

The letter I received from Catalina indicated that they don't believe its a serious condition and that it may be repaired at a future date. Hmmmmm.

--TomP

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