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Will I miss my stern rail if I remove it?

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Paul
1st Mate

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57 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/19/2007 : 08:56:05

Since half of my sailing doesn't pose any real man-overboard threat and the other half is at anchor with kids jumpin in and climbing out of the water, I'm starting to think my C25 might be more user-friendly without the stern rails (or push pit).

Am I wrong?

Notes: My traveler is independent of the stern rail. I know I'll have to fill the mounting holes. And I know I'd have to create a new place to attach the life lines.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2007 : 09:22:24

I wonder what it would do to the re-sale value. I would also contend that a man overboard threat ALWAYS exists. Admittedly, some circumstances are lower risk than others. I can't imagine where you might attach lifelines so as to keep them high enough around the perimeter.

To directly answer your question, IMO you're wrong. I think that modifying safety equipment for the sake of convenience is courting disaster.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2007 : 09:33:22

Another variation... Some years ago, our slip allowed access only over the transom. Many people had trouble climbing over the rail, so I cut the center section out (between the stanchions) and put little stainless caps on the stubs (sold in the bimini hardware section). The stern light was on the rail inside the stanchion on the port side, so I cut just inside the light. Access from the ladder and from the dock became much easier, as did pulling the engine up, and climbing on from a ladder when the boat was on the hard. The remaining rail made a good handhold for climbing or stepping aboard--you just had to step around the stanchion onto a seat--and held the swim ladder in the up position. I considered adding a lifeline with a hook between the two stanchions, but that seemed unnecessary.

What I probably should have done, for a little more strength, was to have a tube welded between the stanchions just above the traveler, but I didn't.

Just a thought...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/19/2007 09:47:40

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 07/19/2007 : 09:38:27

I agree with John. Think how badly you'll feel if you ever do go overboard and watch the boat continue on. Priority on my boat:

1-Safety
2-Safety
3-Safety
4-Everything else

Hang a bar-b-q of the stern rail so it has a fun purpose too.

Not to be over-dramatic but when we are out on the water we are in an environment that can turn deadly fast. Simple fact is we cannot breathe underwater. If for any reason you go over you are in real trouble. Go over and hit your head on the outboad and you better be wearing a very good PFD and your crew, if there is one, better be good at getting back to you. Finally, if there was an accident, I wonder how the insurance company would feel about your modification. My two cents.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2007 : 09:57:11

Come on guys... Do you know where he's sailing? (I don't.) Many--no, most "daysailers" have no lifelines or rails at all... Some big boats I've seen don't--not that I'd want to be without them on Buzzard's Bay... But I'm not sure my sternrail ever kept me in the boat, and I know I almost fell off once because of the lifeline along the windward side deck (which is too low to do much more than trip you).

That said, I like my mod better.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/19/2007 : 11:17:10

No, Dave, I don't know where he sails. I do know that his C25 certainly could take him into situations that my DSII would never approach. Saying that one would NEVER be in a situation requiring the stern rail is a little like saying I'm never going to be in an car accident so I don't need my seatbelt. I've never had an at-fault accident and haven't been in any other accident in over 20 years but, that doesn't mean it couldn't happen on the way home tonight.

That said, I like your mod, too. But I'd add the rail you mentioned and a properly secured detachable lifeline. But even with that, Randy's question about insurance issues remains.

Edited by - on

Paul
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 07/19/2007 : 11:26:23

You guys are probably right. If the day ever comes that I regret doing this, it's going to be a BIG regret.

Dave's mod is a nice compromise. I actually bought the caps to do this before the season started, but didn't get to it - partially because I wasn't sure if the remaining rails would be sturdy enough on their own.

Thanks everyone!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2007 : 12:57:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Paul
 ...If the day ever comes that I regret doing this, it's going to be a BIG regret. Dave's mod is a nice compromise...I wasn't sure if the remaining rails would be sturdy enough on their own.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You might regret my mod more--you can always put the removed rail back where it came from... As for the structure, the addition I described makes the rail essentially the same as the one on the '89-91 models (which used it as the traveler). Alternatively, you could maybe have a welder put an extra stanchion at each corner, which would then make catbird seats possible.

BTW, where DO you sail? (Tell me it's a little pond out behind the barn!

)

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2007 : 13:33:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 ...But even with that, Randy's question about insurance issues remains.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Baloney, with mustard please. Various pulpits, stanchions, and lifelines are optional equipment on many boats. I've yet to hear of a marine policy that requires them, specifies their design, or prohibits their modification. Seatbelts save lives every day. A common use of sternrails I see is sitting on or standing against them, inviting an MOB drill--sorta like sitting on the tailgate in the back of the pickup. They make an OK backrest when sitting on the rail, but they don't necessarily keep you on the boat. If you're concerned about staying on the boat, you keep your butt inside the coamings.

Cut away, Paul.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/19/2007 : 14:57:07

Paul, don't listen to Dave. He's a stinkpotter!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2007 : 15:35:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Paul
 Since half of my sailing doesn't pose any real man-overboard threat and the other half is at anchor with kids jumpin in and climbing out of the water, I'm starting to think my C25 might be more user-friendly without the stern rails (or push pit).

Am I wrong?

Notes: My traveler is independent of the stern rail. I know I'll have to fill the mounting holes. And I know I'd have to create a new place to attach the life lines.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Take it off and save it for the next guy, it has no value. If you can ever get your boat to accelerate fast enough to worry about falling off the back you can put it back on, and tell us how to accelerate that fast! Of all the railing and life lines it has the least value.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2007 : 16:22:21

I think it could be argued by a fair to good lawyer in the worst case that the owner modified the designers safety feature to the detriment of the person that fell overboard.

Is it likely to happen? No. Could it? Sure. Ya pays your money ya takes your chances.

What about the re-sale value? And, what about the lifelines? Do they go too?

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2007 : 20:58:22

Sorry the attached pic
pushes this thread out
I made comments below the pic as well

A 25 foot boat without lifelines and pulpits is by no means unheard of...Hell the A cup boats don't have that crap. I've been out in 6 + footers on the bow of a j-22 gybing the spinnaker on Lake Erie - no pulpit.
I don't think a lawyer would stand a chance especially since A - there were at least three designs of the stern rail - one of which included no stern rail at all - see below b - our boats are so old and replacement parts made by the mfg are not available. C. Boats aren't like cars where certified mechanics do all the work...

As for the insurance - If they require a survey and If they surveyor actually notes it and If the insurance company mandates you fix everything he lists then you have an issue. However If you provide the insurer and the surveyor the picture below you won't have a problem.

If you were to pull the entire thing you could attach the lifelines like in this picture

Here is what I would do - Cut as Dave indicated then find a guy who can weld stainless and have him weld on two rings. Go buy about 20 inches of lifeline and an lifeline clasp and span the gap while underway. Pop it off while at anchor or swimming.

Edited by - Champipple on 07/19/2007 21:02:56

cat30
1st Mate

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73 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2007 : 07:49:27

My 1977 CAT25 #285 did not come with a stern rail- i had it for 15 years and there was never a problem and it didn't miss not having it. the new owner wanted to install one but he never did either.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2007 : 14:29:45

other than missing a mount for all these things, I don't think you'd miss it.

Here's what I have hanging on mine:

Lifesling
flag pole
VHF antenna
man over board pole
mount for dinghy outboard
rod holders
cockpit table
barbeque
stern light

Also I love to sit all the way in back, with my back up against the rail, one hand on the tiller, one hand on the stern pulpit.

I have a friend with a Cal 27 no stern or bow pulpit. I feel a little uncomfortable when the boat is way heeled.

Edited by - JimB517 on 07/21/2007 14:42:11

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2007 : 15:36:24

If the issue is the kids jumping off the boat and climbing back aboard, why not have them jump off the side, where the lifeline gate is, and hang a removable gunwale ladder overboard? There are several models in the West Marine catalog, probably Defender too; I suspect the powerboat stores especially would carry them.

I'm in favor of avoiding surgery whenever possible.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 07/22/2007 02:14:36

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2007 : 21:13:58

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2007 : 10:57:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 On my boat, the stern pulpit is used as the last ladder rung that gets you up in the boat. Without it, I'm not sure what I would use as a hand hold when climbing aboard.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's part of what I liked about my butchering job... Plenty to hang onto, but it's easy to step around instead of having to climb over. I also felt like it was all the enclosure anybody needed in the cockpit--even Jim.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/23/2007 10:58:12

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2007 : 19:07:20

On the topic of stern rails or the lack of,
The 250 lacks any rail over the motor area.
Luckily for me I haven't falling out (yet)

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2007 : 23:02:14

Uh, Tom. You're supposed to take the boat off the trailer and put it in water. It sails much better that way.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2007 : 23:11:11

Actually, it might be a bit more stable with the trailer strapped on...

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KiteKraemer
Navigator

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191 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2007 : 11:45:07

Champipple,
That diagram is sweet! I'd like to remove it from my 25 too. I really don't like it. The lines are much cleaner without, and I'm used to my old 22. I do have a BBQ and propane tank on it. I could easily lose them--Well--move them..to where I don't know--any suggesstions? Plus I'd have to plug up the stantion holes with resin? I guess plugging the 4 holes is relatively easy--finding a new home for the propane and BBQ? Maybe my dock locker? Could I house the larger style propane tank in the fuel locker?
It would be cool if it were safe...

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2007 : 11:51:51

Tom, You need to update that old picture......It is dated.

Tom.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2007 : 12:37:44

Aside from using my stern rail as a ladder rung, life ring holder, and bimini anchor, one of the most important things it does is keep people from flipping over the transom while reclining in a Sport-a-Seat which leans perfectly on the stern rail uprights. My wife probably wouldn't go out sailing if she weren't able to recline in comfort on her Sport-a-Seat. If you put a good throwable square cushion under it, it makes a fine comfortable stern perch seat allowing you to see over the cabin top while kicking your feet up on the coaming.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2007 : 12:48:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by KiteKraemer
 ...finding a new home for the propane and BBQ? Maybe my dock locker? Could I house the larger style propane tank in the fuel locker? It would be cool if it were safe...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
NO! In your older C-25 "dumpster", a tiny leak would allow propane gas to flow into your bilge, where it will collect like water until something (let's see--we were talking about lightning recently...) sets it off. Propane must be stored outside or in a dedicated locker that is sealed from the rest of the hull. The C-250 has a locker just for that purpose. Yours doesn't. If the Coasties inspected her and found an LP tank down there, they might just skuttle her on the spot!

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/24/2007 : 13:34:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by atgep
 Tom, You need to update that old picture......It is dated.

Tom.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yea, that's one of the pictures the PO sent me when I was looking at the boat to buy. That picture was taken in Kansas sometime before I owned it.

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