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C250 Newbie loses control of boat: what happened?

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kevinmac
Admiral

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USA
732 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/25/2007 : 00:00:46

So I went out racing tonight, and pushed the boat a little, and learned what water coming over the rail of a C250WK looks like. I am not sure what happened, and would love to hear comments and suggestions from you experienced folks out there.

It was being reported as a west wind at 13 gusts to 17. There were whitecaps everywhere, so I believe it. I had just rounded the upwind mark and was starting downwind. Upwind, we needed one reef, and had furled our 135 jib half way, and were being intermittantly overpowered, having to pinch in the gusts.

So now we are going downwind, as close to dead downwind as we can. The wind is behind us from the west, although once in a while it switches 90 degrees around to the north for very short periods. We unfurl the jib all the way and put up a whisker pole. We have a very small following swell, maybe 1 foot, also from the west, short period. We are moving through the water at 4.5 to 5 knots according to Raymarine.

Now we shake out the reef in the main. This requires (we still have the stock reefing system) our foredeck guy to be at the mast releasing the reef while we pull up the main. We finish doing this, and boat starts to move faster. It has not been more than 15 seconds since the main halyard was cleated (the foredeck guy is just standing up to come back from the mast) when WHAM suddenly, while I feel lots of force on the tiller, I cannot control the boat, I have the tiller about half way through full travel steering to starboard, and we turn violently to port.

Frankly, all I saw after the turn started is that water was starting to come over the starboard coaming, down the seats and out the transom. I thought, in this order: "Gee, I have never seen that before" and then "Oh crap, am I going to capsize this thing? I'll never get my wife to go sailing again." I don't know where the tiller was by now, because I was trying not to fall in the water.

The foredeck guy later reported that he was hanging from the mast with just his hands, his feet dangling at what he thought was close to 70 or 80 degrees.

We righted after having done about a 150 degree turn. As we righted, I asked the jib guy to release the jib, and I released the main, as the last thing I wanted was to be close hauled with all this sail up. We got steerage again and stabilized on a heading of north. We furled the jib and reefed the main, and tried to continue the race sailing downwind, or east again. But we kept getting those strong gusts from the north periodically, and the boat wanted to round up once in a while, so I decided it had changed from sailing time to Miller time, and we headed home. Even with the reefed main only, I was having to pinch periodically to keep the boat from over heeling (past 30 degrees) on the westward close hauled course for home.

OK, so I really don't have a clue what I did to myself, and I am hoping you folks can help me understand.

For the record, I have sailed this boat in heavier winds, but I don't remember seeing the 90 degree wind shifts, nor the size of the gust (5 knots) being quite so large. The only other difference is trying to hang the unreefed main out there in strong wind, I have never tried that before.

Do you think I rounded up in one of those northerly gusts? Whatever it was, it seemed a LOT more exciting than rounding up has been in the past. Also, if it was a northerly gust, and we were sailing east, why didn't the main, which was sheeted out to the spreader, luff early the roundup?

Did I broach? I gotta admit, I have read about broaching, but barely understand what it is. We sail dead downwind a lot in the river, because there is no other course that really works. I have had the following sea before, and sometimes the boat has felt like it is surfing, and sometimes I get 20 degree oscillations port or starboard that seem to be difficult to control - by the time you steer into them to bring the boat back under the rig, it seems too late to really help.

So anyway, gurus out there, can you give a guy without a clue a clue?

Thanks,

Kevin Mackenzie
Former Association Secretary and Commodore
"Dogs Allowed"
'06 C250WK #881
and
"Jasmine"
'01 Maine Cat 30 #34

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/25/2007 : 01:51:24

Kevin,
Wow, I've rounded up but never broached and that was a broach.
Here's my theory.
If you were heading dead down wind using a whisker pole and didn't gybe, then you were wing-and-wing with the jib to port and main to starboard?

The main is starting to overpower the jib, then wind shifts to port (north).
The wind shift caused the jib to lose power making the roundup worse.
During the roundup, the jib is backwinded and the whisker pole is keeping it in the wrong position.

Now you are 90 degrees to the wind (beam reach, abeam, whatever...)
The whisker pole and jib are at the worst possible position forcing the broach and you're seeing water coming over the cockpit.

Does that sound about right?
Russ C250WB #793

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2007 : 07:29:20

Have experienced similar situation of the boat getting out of control, but that was very early on in our C250WB sailing. Our problem was a rolling front that lead to the wind shifting by 180d while under full 110% jib alone.

Recently on the BEER cruise, during the initial onset of a nasty storm, Tom experienced a similar situation.

Clinton would say "It's the wind stu**((*&".

Sounds like you quickly got it under control which is everyones goal.

Another reason sailors don't need laxatives.

Paul

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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621 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2007 : 07:38:14

Yep that was a broach and it happens to the best of us, especially when racing. One way to minimize (but not eliminate) the chance of a broach is to not sail dead down wind. Sail on a very broad reach and then Jibe your way to the mark. What happens when you are sailing dead down wind is that you loose the feel of the wind and when a gust or a wave catch you from behind it's too late too turn down wind to keep the boat in control. On a broad reach you get a better feel for the wind and the waves and when you feel the beginning of pressure on the helm you can turn down wind to counteract the broach without an accidental jibe. You can still be running wing-on-wing and broad reaching if you are polling the jib to the windward side of the boat and letting it go foward a little (almost like running a spinaker) Not only will this give you more controll it might even improve your speed. Good luck with you're racing and try to keep the crew on board - good crew is hard to find.

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Tom Potter
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Response Posted - 07/25/2007 : 07:51:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 Recently on the BEER cruise, during the initial onset of a nasty storm, Tom experienced a similar situation.
Paul
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I was bare poled.

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 07/25/2007 : 08:35:54

Sounds like you actually rounded up. When you broach your boat kind of rolls over on its side without turning around. It is usually a bang bang scenario one bang your down, one bang your up. If you don't correct for it by releasing the sheet it will reoccur.

It also sounds like you were sailing by the lee. While i've seen it happen I doubt your wind shifted as much as you think it did. More likely than not you were sailing so deep that just a 5 degree shift was enough to slam the main over gybing the boat. the force of the wind rammed your tiller over with it. With your sails all the way out and the jib poled out you weren't trimmed to go up wind - which a 150% turn equates to. Add to that a couple of following waves and your essentially sailing the wrong way on a one way street.

Your bowman needs to be at the mast with his tuckus on the boom to help hold it out. Most don't rig a preventer when racing because if you have to gybe in a flash it can do more harm than good so you use the human preventer. His job isn't to hold it out come hell or high water, because that isn't possible. He/She should hold out the main, if it starts to go he needs to yell hold it for a second and then wrap himself around the front of the mast by the shrouds so that he doesn't get launched. It is also the prime spot for someone to tell you about the traffic coming behind you while downwind.

If he yells, you need to head up a few degrees to correct for the issue. I'd also sail a little higher downwind even if it means throwing another gybe or two into the game plan. Your VMG might actually improve a bit too - tough to say I've never been on a 250.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
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Response Posted - 07/25/2007 : 09:34:47

"When you broach your boat kind of rolls over on its side without turning around. It is usually a bang bang scenario one bang your down, one bang your up."

That sounds more like a "knock down" to me. I've always thought a broach was when the sailplan overpowered the boat, and she went where she wants regardless of what the driver says (most boats are designed to turn up naturally w/o helm).

I've had the "pleasure" of a few of these racing, and so far every one has included a round-up. Once you dig the boat's shoulder (beam) into the water, you're gonna turn (think roll tack). Also, when you lay over on the boat's side, you have little to no rudder control, so "weather helm" becomes a spin upwind. What I've found helps is when you first feel the boat starting to head up, haul the tiller up and HIKE! Get the boat flat and back dw quick.

I know the C25s and C250s are narrower than the CP25s, but I strongly suspect that while they're not as weight sensitive as the Capri's that they'll still round up on a broach.

If you think that was fun, try it with a masthead spin up. The wipe out rounds you up, the spin pulls you back down, lather, rinse, repeat.

Next time you make the "Miller Time" call (good judgement, btw!) and you're sailing downwind-ish, try using the headsail rather than the main. That keeps the power (center of effort) in front of the keel (center of resistance) and the boat will balance better - ie no round-ups. Roops, just re-read your post and noticed your return course was CH. Since you've got a furling headsail, try adding a squeak of jib to help keep the bow down. Shouldn't be enough power to add to the heeling moment.

Jim

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kevinmac
Admiral

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Response Posted - 07/25/2007 : 10:44:36

Russ's description sounds like what happened. Some other comments on all your excellent replies so far:

I know a 90 degree wind shift sound improbable, but it kept doing it all afternoon. Heck, maybe it was 70, not 90, but one moment the wind is behind us and we are sailing with the telltale pointing just north of west (while sailing east), and seconds later the telltale is pointing directly abeam north. This is without any boat rocking to fool the telltale.

Duane, we did not gybe. The jib was on the port side and the main on the starboard side the whole time.

I think the main was overpowering the jib, which is not something I have ever experienced. I had about 1/3 travel starboard rudder in, and as the boat started to turn to port I added more as fast as I could, but it did no good (and may have stalled the rudder). Anyway, we had just removed the reef in the main, making it more powerful. A wind shift to the north backwinds the jib, and YEE HA!

Sooo... How do I prevent this from happening? Leave the main reefed in strong winds? What else? Perhaps we should not use the pole in strong winds?

Also, on your suggestion to sail downwind with jib only: I have read (somewhere, maybe on this site) that sailing with jib only stresses the mast the wrong way (takes the bend out) and puts the rig at risk. Any thoughts on that?

Thanks everyone so far.

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SailCO26
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Response Posted - 07/25/2007 : 11:50:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kevinmac
 Also, on your suggestion to sail downwind with jib only: I have read (somewhere, maybe on this site) that sailing with jib only stresses the mast the wrong way (takes the bend out) and puts the rig at risk. Any thoughts on that?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's a new one to me, but I'm going on my experience as much as anything. I can't see the headsail-only in a blow stressing the rig forward any more than a large kite (esp a masthead) + main in big air. As to taking the "bend out", do you mean inverting the mast (ie the normally fwd-bend is now aft-bend)? That's what lowers are for - to keep that from happening (as well as inducing pre-bend in masthead rigs). If you have an adjustable backstay, a crank there would help both the maintenance of the mast bend AND keep luff tension in the headsail to keep it powered down - but since you're going downwind it's really more a drag device than a lift device anyway...

My $0.02, YMMV. :)

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/25/2007 : 13:40:20

Maybe you should do what Bristle did and become a stinkpotter.

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 07/25/2007 : 14:40:25

Okay - first - looks like different time zones have different definitions of broach. Throw pitch pole into the mix and I become thoroughly confused.

Either way, you have two options in this case. The first being to steer down with the windshift then jib if it looks like it will be a persistant shift jibe. You probably would have seen some indication of it in your tell tales as it is really rare for a good breeze to completely clock that quickly. There should have been enough time to catch it. Though sometimes Stuff happens and then your hosed.

The other option would be to trim in your sails with the shift - part of the reason you did what you did was because you had so much sag going on in the sails because you were trimmed for downwind. If there is this much wind, you probably don't need a whisker pole so getting that out of the way isn't an issue anymore. This is going to require some turning down and some bringing in. If you are on the inside of the shift, you make out by getting a reaching leg. Or - option 3 go in and grab a cold one...

As for going headsail only I too read the threads that have popped up regarding Genoa only and don't put much stock into it. I've seen boats with far less rigging do it all the time. One went bare poles with a spinnaker up in 25 kts at Key West without problems and then headed upwind without a main becuase of a broken boom. I wouldn't do it in a race, but it shouldn't be an issue. Ton's of furler cruisers do it all the time while single handing because they don't want to deal with a mainsail.

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/25/2007 : 15:18:46

Kevin,

I know racing is different, but I would keep the main reefed and not use the whisker pole in strong winds.
Next, you might consider a deep broad reach and not dead downwind.
You can still round up if the main overpowers the jib.
Lastly, I remember the discussion about jib only and if you exceed hull speed, then the rig stresses increase.

Russ #793

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jguyot
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 07/25/2007 : 17:03:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kevinmac
 Even with the reefed main only, I was having to pinch periodically to keep the boat from over heeling (past 30 degrees) on the westward close hauled course for home.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Kevin,
When I am racing upwind in "Gusty" conditions, I find that if I "play" with the mainsheet, I can hold down the angle of heel and keep my heading pretty close to what I want it to be and not lose speed. In gusty conditions I keep the mainsheet in my hand and uncleated.....When I feel the gust starting to build I slowly start to let the mainsheet out in anticipation of the gust to spill some of the wind and let it out as much as needed to not become over powered. As soon as the gust starts to let up, you start to pull it back in again to it's close hauled position. This way you aren't fighting as much with the rudder (which will tend to slow you down). At times I have had to let the mainsheet out all the way and then quickly pull it back in to keep everything under control. In very windy conditions, I'll even assign a "railmeat" person to be the mainsheet person while I concentrate on just the helm.

It works for me.............YMMV!

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kevinmac
Admiral

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Response Posted - 07/25/2007 : 17:32:51

Jerry, with regard to going upwind, I am not sure which works better: to play the jib and maintain course, as you describe, or to pinch up and gain distance to windward, then fall off after the gust is past. Both seem to have advantages and disadvantages...

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jguyot
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Response Posted - 07/25/2007 : 21:16:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kevinmac
 Jerry, with regard to going upwind, I am not sure which works better: to play the jib and maintain course, as you describe, or to pinch up and gain distance to windward, then fall off after the gust is past. Both seem to have advantages and disadvantages...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree both tactics have their advantages and they can both be worked together. This is usually in winds above 15mph plus. I have worked it very sucessfully and usually let out the main just before it pinches up and starts to slow down (Round up) Again this playing the Main and not the Jib.

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Oscar
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Response Posted - 07/28/2007 : 21:58:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">How do I prevent this from happening?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Stay square on the wind.....when the wind shifts as you described you have to fall off, anticipate almost, it's an unnatural thing to do, but still you have to. If the wind shifts quickly you have to do it quickly. Sounds like you ended up on a near beam reach in a lot of wind.....once she starts rounding up you wont stop her.....here's why: Take a ruler and angle it to the table, 30, 45 degrees. Now simulate the rounding up manouever....notice that the top of the ruler travels a (lot) greater distance than the foot, but in the same amount of time......this makes the airflow (read wind speed) in the upper regions of your sail increase, and all that in a gust.....25-30-35-40 knots total? Who knows. Its enough to knock you flat. (lots of arm to the force too) The hull shape doesn't help either. Reefing helps fight roundups for this very reason. Not so much less sail, but less sail up high.

So, the trick is to steer assertively to stay square on the wind. Head up on your terms when you're ready. If the weather is so squirly that steering properly becomes difficult, by all means quit running and get on an easier point of sail and tack/gybe downwind. (Remember a 270 degree tack is the same as a gybe in conditions where a gybe is not prudent.)

Running on jib alone is no detriment to your rig.

Hope this helps.

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Turk
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Response Posted - 07/29/2007 : 08:55:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oscar
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">How do I prevent this from happening?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Stay square on the wind.....when the wind shifts as you described you have to fall off, anticipate almost, it's an unnatural thing to do, but still you have to. If the wind shifts quickly you have to do it quickly. Sounds like you ended up on a near beam reach in a lot of wind.....once she starts rounding up you wont stop her.....
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree with this entirely. You have to pay attention in squirrelly weather with wind shifts. That said, I had almost the exact situation happen to me several weeks ago. It caught my wife and I completely off guard. We were not racing at the time, just day sailing. We had a 90 degree wind shift or more appropriately a wind gust. Jib backwinded forced us over and I quickly sailed around until it stabilized. I'm not sure you can do anything to prevent something like that, but only react fast enough to eliminate tossing your cabin below. We survived as we have in the past and you begin to learn how safe our boats really are. Other than the danger of losing someone overboard, you are not going to sink the boat. Racing puts you in situations and in weather that you probably would not normally push yourself to sail in. It makes you a better sailer. I have reefed my main one time in a race, won't do that again, you lose. Learn to sail with everything up - you go faster. Healing is good. Lifejackets are a must. Our club won't sail in 20 and above. We do sail in 15-20 with gusts above that.

Our 250's have a great advantage over other boats downwind, wing on wing. We go fast. I will go wing on wing on the downward leg every time over sailing off downwind, UNLESS, squirrelly conditions prevent it. Sounds like you were in one of those conditions. I am more concerned about swinging booms more than I am rounding up or broaching as people can get seriously hurt.

One more ramble: While racing in a crowd or as you're nearing a mark, be aware if you think your boat is having a tendency to round up and make yourself and others aware. Many crashes have occurred as one boat has rounded up right in front of another. The race just isn't worth damaging two boats. We just had an incident at our club resulting in one owner having to pay for another owners boat damage. Several thousands of dollars for a new mast. He rounded up in front of him - not really his fault, but who else are you gonna blame. Also, be aware of others near you in high wind conditions. After you have raced awhile, you will become familiar with those who have boats that may not be as stable as ours and you can stay clear.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2007 : 10:47:26

Regarding the wind clocking around suddenly, I was once in a situation where it seemed to do about a 720 on our Daysailer. It was a highly variable day--flat water and then big gusts... I'm pretty sure I got caught in a "micro-burst", which is a downward wind gust that goes in all directions when it hits the ground or water. It was the wierdest few seconds (maybe 15) I've ever had on the water--no matter what I did, at least one of my sails was backwinded from some new direction, and I pretty much lost all steerage!

Regarding stresses under headsail only, I can imagine that being an issue with a tapered, severely-bent mast (as on Hunters), but we don't have that, and thus "inversion" is not much of an issue. Besides, the C-250 has only one pair of lower shrouds--not fore and aft--so they don't do much for bending the mast or preventing inversion--just for maintaining column. Jib/genny alone can be a nice way to sail, especially on the C-25, which has the mast further back.

Regarding "being like Bristle", that's not why I went over to the Dark Side.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/29/2007 15:41:22

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/29/2007 : 22:55:28

Just teasing you Dave. I hope there is a trawler in my future.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2007 : 12:57:48

Even I haven't "graduated" to the trawler class yet...

Sarge cruises at 20-22 knots and tops out at around 32 (so far). That's not exactly Cigarette action, but it feels like flying to me! I know some people with a Grand Banks trawler--nice, but too many systems. (...and you don't want to be up on the bridge in a seaway, so most driving is indoors.

)

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