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Reefing--One Line or Two?

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/28/2002 : 19:02:57

Now that I have my new deck organizers and rope clutches installed, I'm looking at being able to reef from the cockpit. My reefing hardware is probably the factory setup--for two lines, both of which I could lead back by adding one cheek block. However, it seems that with one more block I could also rig a single-line system, which I haven't used before. How easy is it to yank both ends down with a single line versus using two? A single line sounds handy, but does it work well without a winch?

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/28/2002 : 19:37:48

I use the single line method . The biggest problem I have is I have no topping lift and its a pain to reef with out something to hold the boom up when you slack the main halyard. I presently use an unused spinaker line or the pig tail. Im working on something like a ridged vang to hold up the boom.

Doug&Ruth
Wind Lass
Tacoma Wa.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 07/28/2002 : 20:52:24

Thanks, Doug... (or is it Ruth?) Fortunately, I have a topping lift. And that gives me another idea--if I have trouble yanking down the leach with a single line system, and I have the topping lift led aft, maybe I can pull the boom up a little, pull down the leech, and then drop the boom! Hopefully, I won't need to do all of that.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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Randall
Navigator

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Response Posted - 07/28/2002 : 21:46:32

I meant to run a piece of 1/8" nylon line from the masthead down to the boom as a topping lift, but I forgot. That worked well on my 19 and 22 foot boats, would it be OK for the TR 25? I love being able to tie the boom up about 7 feet above the cockpit & hanging a boom tent over it for shade at anchor.

Randall

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Gary
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 07/28/2002 : 22:15:49

Dave, I rigged a single line reefing system on my C25. I like it. It's fast, easy(no winch required), and you don't have to leave the cockpit. I have a topping lift to support the end of the boom. If single handing, I can heave to and reef the main in a minute or so.

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Greg Jackson
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 07/28/2002 : 23:42:44

I have single line reefing on my first reef and two line reefing on the second. With the second reef I have two lines lead back, one for tack and one clew.

Single line works reasonably well but it can be troublesome to get the tension correct between head, tack, and clew. It helps to have the halyard marked to the right point.

Two line reefing is a bit more hassle, but it offers more definitive control of lines and tension. When all hell breaks loose in a storm, which might be at night, I prefer two line reefing and I will also go to the second reef. Below 20 knots of wind, single line reefing works fine. This is a happy condition for the first reef.

G. Jackson

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/29/2002 : 12:05:06

Dave - I have a single line reefing system and it works great. It runs from a padeye at the port end of the boom, up thru' the reefing cringle and down to a turning block on the stbd side of the boom (this block needs to be aft of the end of the sail so that it pulls the clew both down and out), thru' padeys along the boom,up thru' a turning block on the stbd side below the gooseneck, up thru' the reefing cringle, down thru' a bullet block at the maststep, thru' a triple deck organiser to a clam cleat at the aft end of the cabin top.
To reef, we just keep sailing, drop the main halyard to a marked point and haul like hell on the reefing line. When the clew snugs against the boom we retension the main halyard. Takes the crew about 20 seconds - but when single handing it takes me just a little longer! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2002 : 12:11:23

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I meant to run a piece of 1/8" nylon line from the masthead down to the boom as a topping lift... would it be OK for the TR 25?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
My unscientific opinion is that 1/8" nylon is pretty light and springy for a C-25 boom. I'd feel better with at least 1/4" Sta Set, which is probably about what we have on ours--maybe 5/16". Take it down to a cheek block, and you can run it forward to a cleat where you can easily adjust the height--or all the way to the mast and then back to the coachroof, for those times when you forget to lower it before getting under way. <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 07/29/2002 : 12:19:59

Thanks Derek, Gary, and Greg... That's good input--I'll install another cheek block forward on the boom and should be ready to run a single line system back to the cockpit. Greg: Above 20, our intentions are to be watching the whitecaps from our slip or at anchor... For 20-25, I need a different crew, and above 25, I need a different captain! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> The rest of you, have fun out there...

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/29/2002 : 13:45:41

Dave,

I have a single line set up that works quite well...with the single exception of needing to change the cleat (which is an in process procedure.) My line starts with a bowline on a small padeye and runs through the first Reefing Point (we only have one) to a turning block on the boom back to the turning block on the aft end of the boom (goes through 1 or two leads too not sure on # though) up through the aft reefing point and back down to a cam cleat (currently not a cam cleat but will be once I find a day that is not suited for sailing) on the boom.

When we reef, we ease out on the Halyard and simultaneously take in on the reefing line. We then have the option of Tying the sail with reefing lines...(before you chime in Derek, we have a loose footed sail so we tie it to itself not the boom). We also used to Move the cunningham/boom down haul (ours serves as either or) to the new cunningham slot in the sail. Instead though, we now tighten it as a down-haul and adjust with halyard tension.

We have found this method to work fairly well....

DW

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b1ce23b3127cce9b043565af3d0000004010" border=0>

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/29/2002 : 14:50:54

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The biggest problem I have is I have no topping lift and its a pain to reef with out something to hold the boom up when you slack the main halyard.

Doug&Ruth
Wind Lass
Tacoma Wa.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Well, at risk of great personal embarrassment <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> ... I don't know if I have a topping lift or not. I am about to step the mast for the first time, and I noticed that I've got a coiled nylon line up at the top of the mast on the stern side (I think it is about 3/8" line) ... is it a topping lift? Could it be anything else? I thought I had a photo of it to post, but I don't ... 'sorry.

Thanks for the help!

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 07/29/2002 : 15:28:04

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I noticed that I've got a coiled nylon line up at the top of the mast on the stern side (I think it is about 3/8" line) ... is it a topping lift? Could it be anything else?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
If it's on the aft end of the masthead fitting inside the backstay, is made of rope, and is attached with a cleavis pin... Let's see, what else could it be........ Maybe a belaying line for climbing the mast? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/29/2002 : 18:38:47

I've found that 3/16" line is sufficient for both a topping lift and a reefing line (gotta save on the weight!!)<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

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Randolph G. Wilson
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 07/30/2002 : 18:06:16

Again, on somewhat the same subject as reefing: I am a new C-25 owner and have yet to sail it in heavy air. My question is this: At what wind velocity does it become necessary/confortable to reef the main? My jib is a 110% (I think). How does the boat sail with reefed main and jib? What about reefed main only? Jib only? Guess I'll find out sooner or later the hard way but would most appreciate input by the "oldtimers". I'm on Lake Lanier where the wind can go from near calm to blustery in a heartbeat.

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 07/30/2002 : 20:12:16

Randolph - the time to reef the main is when you first consider it!
Having said that, it depends upon how comfortable you are in heavy air. I'm an hard core racer, and as such reef later than most. My parameters are basically: up to 15k full main and 155%, 15 - 20k change to 135% or even a 110% depending upon steady wind or gusty, over 20k reef main and 110%. However, when just cruising or single-handing I will decrease the sail area earlier.
IMHO the C25 sails much better on a balanced sail plan (reefed main and a headsail). Sailing on a headsail alone is preferable to main only (but there will be several who disagree with me). "This Side Up" is a turkey to sail under just a reefed main (TRFK).
Derek who is getting withdrawal symptoms....

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2002 : 21:58:54

Randolph: Try them all... You'll probably find that under headsail alone, she'll move along fairly well, won't point particularly high, and will have some lee helm (turning off the wind if you let go of the tiller). Under main alone, she'll seem to point better, but you'll have a little more leeway and less speed. However, you can tack quickly and easily--nice if you're single-handed. A reefed main really wants some headsail--I generally roll up a quarter to a third of my 130 if I want to keep her on her feet. If we have a long reach in a stiff breeze, we'lllikely do it on the genny alone. But we're not racers.

Everyone has their own taste for performance, comfort, and the desire to get somewhere. We are often just out on the water watching the world go by. As my favorite saying goes, you can get there faster on a power boat; on a sailboat, you're already there!

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/31/2002 : 14:46:25

Randolph,

A boat that is overpowered cannot point as close to the wind, and cannot sail as fast, as a boat that is carrying the correct amount of sail area.

The time when you should reef is a judgment call. Derek’s general guidelines are pretty accurate, but, in reality, the wind almost never blows precisely at 15k or 18k. What usually happens is that the wind blows in a series of gusts and lulls. On some days, the lulls might be predominant, because the gusts are infrequent, and of short duration. On other days, the gusts might be predominant, because the lulls are infrequent and of short duration. When applying Derek’s guidelines, you should apply the windspeed that is predominant on that particular day.

For example, let’s say the wind is blowing at 14k during the lulls, but it is gusting to 25k. During the lulls, when the wind is blowing at 14k, the 155% genoa is the correct choice when you use Derek’s guidelines. But, during the periods when the wind is gusting to 25k, the boat is overpowered, and not sailing efficiently. If the lulls are predominant (i.e. most of the time, the wind is blowing 14k.), then one might decide to use a 155% genoa, and nurse it through the gusts by easing either the mainsheet traveller, or the mainsheet, and using other sail trimming and steering techniques. If, on the other hand, the gusts are predominant (i.e., most of the time, the wind is blowing 25k.), then you should reduce the size of the headsail and/or reef the mainsail. Therefore, when you are deciding whether or not to reduce sail area, the question you must ask is, “What percentage of the time is the wind gusting, and what percentage of the time is it lulling, and on average, will the boat point higher and sail faster with more or less sail area?”

Racers usually carry the most sail area they can for two reasons. (1) First, on a sailboat, your sails are the equivalent of your motor in an automobile. Most racers believe that, if their opponent has a bigger “motor” than them, they cannot beat him. This is only partially true, however, because, with sailboats, there is a point where too much sail area actually slows you down. The key is to carry as much sail area as you can, efficiently. (2) Secondly, if you are carrying too much sail area, it is usually more detrimental when you are beating to windward, than it is when you are reaching or running. Race courses are usually set up so that you are only beating to windward for somewhat less than half the time. Therefore, racers don’t mind it if the boat is overpowered a little bit, because they believe that, if the boat is laboring and loses a little speed when beating to windward, the larger sail area will enable it to go faster on the reaches and runs, making up for that loss.

When the boat is overpowered, you are confronted with the question of whether you should reduce the size of the headsail, or reef the mainsail. As a general principle, the headsail generates the most forward drive, and the mainsail helps the boat point to windward. The particular disadvantage of the mainsail, however, is that it is more responsible for excessive heeling and for excessive tiller pressure than is the headsail. When a boat heels excessively, and when it has excessive tiller pressure, it is generating drag, which drastically slows the boat. When my boat is overpowered, and I am trying to decide whether to reef the mainsail or to reduce the size of the headsail, I completely ease the mainsheet while the wind is gusting. If the boat does not continue to heel excessively, when sailing under the headsail alone, then I conclude that the size of the headsail is not excessive, so I reef the mainsail. By reducing mainsail area, it will help the boat point to windward, it will reduce the tiller pressure, and the mainsail will not generate so much heeling moment. However, if the boat is still heeling excessively, or very nearly so when I completely ease the mainsheet, then I conclude that the size of the headsail is excessive, and that it is time to reduce the size of the headsail. When I reduce the size of the headsail, I also usually tuck in a flattening reef in the mainsail. If that does not sufficiently relieve the tiller pressure or excessive heeling, then I tuck in the first full reef in the mainsail.

Excessive heeling and excessive tiller pressure are the two observable conditions that impede the boat’s speed and windward ability. Your objective is to find the combination of mainsail and headsail that minimize those adverse conditions, while maximizing the boat’s speed and windward ability. When you observe that those adverse conditions are abating (i.e., you see that the boat is not heeling as much, and you feel less pressure on the tiller), then you will know that you have improved the balance of your sailplan.

This all assumes that you are either racing or that you want to make the best possible speed for some reason. If you are cruising, or if you have non-sailing guests aboard, it is better to reef sooner. It's a lot harder to reef the mainsail when the boat is already overpowered and heeling excessively, and you certainly don’t want to frighten your non-sailing guests. While you are learning to sail, your family and friends will not have a lot of confidence in you as a sailor, and if you frighten them, they will be very reluctant to go out with you again. As you gain skill and experience, they will have increasing confidence in you.

If you are new to sailing, I suggest you use your mainsail and 110% jib throughout the whole first season on the water. The small jib is easier to handle while tacking, and it is enough to move the boat reasonably well, even in light air. If the wind is blowing very much at all, or if the sky is on the dark side, I suggest you tuck a full reef into your mainsail before you leave the dock. It would be unusual to encounter a wind on an inland lake that would overpower a C-25 with a 110% jib and a reefed mainsail, but it is possible. If it happens, just get your sails down quickly and motor back to the docks.

I really don’t like to sail under just the mainsail, or just the jib. A sloop is designed to sail with a mainsail and a jib, and it performs best that way. If skipper and crew are learning how to sail, they need to practice tacking the headsail and the mainsail, and coordinating the two, and they need to practice trimming the sails for different directions and windspeeds. You can’t do that if you are only flying one sail.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/01/2002 10:34:13

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2002 : 15:26:40

...like I said, there's the racing perspective, the cruising perspective, and the "getting out there" perspective. <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/31/2002 : 15:37:28

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Randolph,

A boat that is overpowered cannot point as close to the wind, and cannot sail as fast, as a boat that is carrying the correct amount of sail area. ...

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Another GREAT and informative post ... thanks, Steve, for taking the time to write it! <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

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gnorgan
Admiral

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Response Posted - 07/31/2002 : 21:14:43

How about the web guru copying Steve's reply to the tech section, right below (above?)[anywhere!] Bill Holcomb's piece? This would be an excellent narrative to have available for easy access by all in the future, IMHO <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>. Any thank you, again, Steve, for taking the time to do such an excellent job!.
Gary Norgan

C25 tall/wing
Classical Cat #5944

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Mike Vaccaro
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 08/01/2002 : 05:20:28

One other thing to be aware of when you consider reefing is the point of sail that you are on. If you are beating, it becomes rapidly apparent when you are carrying too much sail; but on a beam/broad reach or run, it's not always as apparent, especially if the wind starts to pipe up while on this point of sail.

Typically, a boat can carry more sail when sailing off-wind. So as you're cruising along content to be at hull speed, you need to keep abreast of the actual wind. Without some sort of expensive wind instrumentation, you'll have to stay atuned to the signals you receive naturally: The feel of the wind and the condition of the water. Although the exact speed will vary, a chop usually starts to show some white caps around 15-17 knots or so, probably the point at which you might consider reducing sail area. If you don't need to turn head to wind, you can continue on your merry way without decreasing sail and see how well you do getting your Cat 25 to plane out;)

If the wind speed has increased since your last beat, you may want to reduce your sail area before you tack or gibe. If you can reef efficiently, and you find that you didn't need to reduce sail area, you can always shake the reef out (but it sure can be tough to tuck one in, if you find yourself rapidly over-powered). In some windy conditions, 25+ knots or so, you may need to sail off-wind to properly adjust your sails before you try to beat. If you're racing, you may need to determine this prior to rounding the leeward mark, but it can be even more important if you're trying to keep the boat on an even keel with the family aboard. The bottom line is simple: If in doubt, reef.

Cheers,

Mike Vaccaro on the "Swoose"
84 TR/SK #4707

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Randolph G. Wilson
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 08/01/2002 : 10:39:30

Thanks to all and particularly Steve, for his dissertation. I am not new to sailing. Just new to displacement boats. All of your comments and suggestions are much appreciated.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2002 : 14:23:13

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
My line starts with a bowline on a small padeye and runs through the first Reefing Point (we only have one) to a turning block on the boom back to the turning block on the aft end of the boom (goes through 1 or two leads too not sure on # though) up through the aft reefing point and back down to a cam cleat on the boom.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Duane: I just realized while re-reading this thread that you're reefing from the aft end of the boom. All of the other setups I've seen do the adjusting from the forward end--my two-line system is set up to run the aft reefing line forward to a cleat on the boom, so both ends can be done from close to the mast. How does yours work while under way (or hove to)?

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/01/2002 : 17:12:41

Dave,

Works as good as can be I suppose. Theres a few reasons for my uncertainty, first, We have had diddly for wind all summer. Secondly, we are a bit lazy …its easier to just drop the jib and go main only than it is to work up a sweat and reef. Lastly, we opt to just skip sailing altogether and head for the bar. I do know that we lose a little purchase through the last block rigging it this way, but my original intent was to bring it aft into the cockpit with minimal expense. It should also be noted that our sail only has one reefing point. *see below for the thought process on this.

To be honest, Dave, We have only reefed it once underway, all the other times we've set it up that way at the dock prior to departure. We do this under the belief that its easier to shake out a reef than it is to put one in underway....

When I originally pondered the situation, we had the double set up (two lines for reefing) the way Catalina had intended. This past year, when we led the lines aft, we only had double blocks on both sides and when it was all said and done, the reefing line didn’t make the first string (pun kinda intended). Seeing this as partially insane and partially ironic I decided to attempt this method. Sorry I can’t be of more help.

Dw


Reasoning for one reefing point – when we bought the new sail at the beginning of last season, we already had the old one with two reefing points. Our intent was to start racing. Based on our knowledge of the boat and prevailing wind in Cleveland (spring and fall (summer there isn’t any)) we moved the reef point up just a bit from what would normally be the first point. We also added sail area by making the roach larger. So now, when comes time go from one reef to two, a lot of the skippers are forced to choose a headsail they don’t want because their second reef point is more cloth than they want to take in. We on the other hand, can hold our reef with a #2 or #3 headsail while the other guys have to go to their 90%. We are essentially playing a hand of cards that is dealt a lot, when we race. Of course looking at the flag on the 54th floor of the building across the street, it wouldn’t matter if you had a sail for a maxi-hull onboard right now…..

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b1ce23b3127cce9b043565af3d0000004010" border=0>

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2002 : 21:15:14

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
We also added sail area by making the roach larger.
Duane Wolff
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Mr. Chief Measurer, Sir...

First, I wholeheartedly agree with your philosophy on reefing, including the "heading for the bar" part! Since you didn't have room through the forward hardware and usually reef before setting sail, yanking it down from the aft end of the boom is an interesting idea. Fortunately, I did triple organizers that'll let me lead the line back on the coachroof, but otherwise, I might have tried your approach.

Now, about that main....... Is that extra roach allowed in the class rules? (Not that I care--just curious.) <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/01/2002 : 21:19:22

Dave - that extra roach better be legal - 'cos I've got one!!
Derek

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.