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Michael B
Deckhand

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USA
13 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/11/2007 :  17:51:21  Show Profile
Hi all,
I enjoy reading all your post and really get a lot from it.I've spent many a hour on here.I've been renting a 1985 fin keel STD rig and do most of my sailing off the coast of San Diego.I like the 25 a lot.I've also sailed the C250 and i like the older c25 better.I would like do overnight trips to out local off shore islands with two of us aboard.If you could have a 25 or 27 which one would be best?Does one have any less problems than the other?Does one sail any better?ECT. This will be my first sailboat.

Mike

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2007 :  18:08:30  Show Profile  Visit Frank Hopper's Homepage
Blue water... 27.
Sailboats go through design periods that are common to the industry, the 27 is essentially the last of an old school design style.The essence of it was sea kindly and strong with the interior volume left to what it turned out to be. The 25 was an early example of a more modern design philosophy where waterline length was exploited to increase usable interior space. The interiors of the 25 evolved from the older style of a large dinette for seating to settees to create a feel of more room down below. Now the 250 embraces the interior volume is king philosophy that is so prevalent in current boats.
The 25 is a capable boat but the 27 is a real truck and would give me more confidence off shore. In either case I would invest heavily in refitting new rigging before I left shore. As for problems, at these ages of boats it is all about the history of the boat you are looking at more than original design issues.

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piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2007 :  18:16:58  Show Profile  Visit piseas's Homepage
Michael, I am south of you, Newport Beach so I know your area. I have a 250 and love it. I have taken it to Catalina for a week trip. It handled great. I decided on the 25 for several reasons. One, I wanted a tiller and 2nd an outboard. But even though I like the looks of the 25 vs thec 2500, I wanted the 250 cuz its newer so less maintance for me and not as much teak-again less maintance. Thats me. If I was gonna move up, I would probably start with a 30'.
good luck

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2007 :  18:36:45  Show Profile
I studied the C-25, C-250, and C-27 for a while before buying a 25... The 27 has true standing headroom (for me), possibly the biggest difference for our purposes (Long Island Sound). On the other hand, the v-berth in the 27 seemed smaller than the 25's. (I didn't take measurements.) It seems like a large majority of C-27s were built with Atomic-4 (gas) inboards--newer ones with Universal diesels. I preferred an outboard, and wanted a boat that I didn't think was too much for one. (Some C-27s are built for outboards, but I dunno......) Most 27s have marine heads--at that time, we preferred a porta-potti for a few reasons... Sailing-wise, the 27 felt stiffer (probably due to its beam) but the 25 (fin) and 27 felt similar otherwise, in seakeeping and performance.

BTW, we bought the C-25 because it allowed us to slip it in the town "boat club" between all the Makos, Grady Whites, and Aqua Sports. We had no interest in trailering, and stored her in a boatyard, so size was only an issue for the slip.

Have you sailed a C-27? I think you need to get your own feeling.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/11/2007 18:44:13
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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2007 :  19:33:26  Show Profile  Visit JimB517's Homepage
Check out my website of all the places I've sailed my C25. 50 miles offshore to Santa Barbara Island, San Diego to Santa Rosa Island, circumnavigate Santa Cruz Island under sail, Newport - Ensenada race, vacation in northern Baja, numerous trips to Catalina, and the Coronado Islands.

www.indiscipline.org/cat25/indyIII.html

Then come and sail on my C25 in San Diego's Mission Bay. There is a C27 on our dock with an outboard in a well.

If you are getting a 27, I'd get the outboard model.

Pretty much of a toss up. I don't think there is anything a C27 can do that a 25 can't. If you plan to trailer, go with the 25.

I beat a Catalina 27 to Catalina Island in the Crew of 2 Around Catalina race. However, if you plan to PHRF race, I'd go with the 27.

I would like a little more headroom, that much is true.

I've sailed a 250 and I much prefer the 25.

For San Diego I often wish I had the Tall Rig, except on really windy days.

If you are planning to slip the boat, consider Marina Village Mission Bay L dock, home of San Diego's Catalina 25/250 Fleet 7.

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Michael B
Deckhand

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USA
13 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2007 :  21:53:51  Show Profile
Hey Jim,
That's funny, I have your web site stored in my bookmarks.I've read every word of it.I check it out often to see if you have added anything new.I saw your boat one day when i checking out the marina.It's very nice.I would probally leave a boat in a slip but if I came across a nice 25 on a trailer I could tow it too.I towed a 10000lb power boats for years so I know what towing is all about.Currently I rent a C25 from Seaforth across the way from you.Thank you and everyone else for your input.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2007 :  22:32:01  Show Profile
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by JimB517</i>
<br />I beat a Catalina 27 to Catalina Island in the Crew of 2 Around Catalina race. However, if you plan to PHRF race, I'd go with the 27.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Jim: Did you beat them to the finish line, or on corrected time? In either case, why would you recommend a C-27 over a C-25 for handicapped racing? Just curious...

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2007 :  01:01:54  Show Profile  Visit JimB517's Homepage
MichaelB - are you the guy Inneke at Marina Village gave my phone number too? I sail most every day after work (although those days are numbered) and every Sunday. You are welcome to come try it out with me sometime. We can fly the spinnaker.

Dave - the reason I'd go with a Cat 27 instead of a 25 for PHRF racing AT LEAST HERE is that there are some 27s actually racing locally. Check out my web page for the Crew of 2 Around Catalina race and see me passing the 27 on the way over, then getting passed in a tacking duel, finally rounding the windward mark first. However, I dropped out due to thunderstorms and they continued. I can beat a Cat 27 scratch in the right conditions (rough, windy). They can dust me in light air. The waterline length is about the same, their mast is like a C25 tall rig.

Actually if I wanted to race in this size/price range I'd go with a Cal 27 instead, or even better, my dream boat a J 27 (not in this price range, though). I've sailed the Cal 27 and it is much faster, stiffer and more stable, but has a wet cockpit due to poor scupper design. Also a poptop boat.

A guy races a J27 in PHRF C (two whole classes higher than me) and regularly beats 35 to 38 footers. It rates 120. I wish I had $25K but then I'd probably get a real nice diesel C30.

There will be a 1964 Cal 30 for sale I can pick up for about $8K with an Atomic 4. Rates 198. It is tempting to basically sell my C25 for it, but then I'd be giving up about $5K of upgrades, sails, etc. and have to start over with a poorly equipped (but good hull/engine) older Cal. At least I know it has new tankage, I helped put the new tank in.

One of the reasons I chose the C25 is this - select the smallest boat that will get the job done (ie. meets your requirements). Potter 19 I looked at - too small. Cat 30 - too big. C25 just right. C27 would be fine, too.

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2007 :  05:16:00  Show Profile  Visit OLarryR's Homepage
Jim,

You mentioned other boats you looked at with a 19 being too small and a 30 being too large. I was wondering if you ever looked at a Benetau 23 (think it is called a First 235) ? I was consiering one but the my assessment was that I felt the cabin was a bit confined and the specific boat i was considering had a musty smell and not in as quite as good shape as the catalina 25 I purchased. The Benetau seemed to me would have been a bit more tippy, not as stable and other family members would not have liked it (mainly my wife) would not appreciate that as much as the Catalina 25. But my impression was that the Benetau, at least for racing, would have been a much faster boat.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2007 :  08:46:24  Show Profile
The 235 is a hot little bay-sailer, but Jim cruises in the Pacific--singlehanded, up on the cabintop and out on the foredeck,... (I think he needs more boat. )

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/12/2007 08:48:08
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cat1951
Admiral

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USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2007 :  08:59:28  Show Profile
Even though you didn't mention it, would you consider the C28 MKII? We have our sights set on one for several reasons.
1. The Headroom
2. Enclosed Head
3. Headroom
4. Berth under the cockpit area that is very comfortable.
5. Headroom
6. Wheel Steering (I don't care about this, but the Admiral insists.
7. and lastly..headroom

I really like our C25, but am tired of stooping in the cabin and hitting my head on the cross piece in the bulkhead when going forward. I just want to stand up once in a while.

Edited by - cat1951 on 10/12/2007 09:00:19
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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2007 :  09:09:01  Show Profile  Visit Frank Hopper's Homepage
I think the two prettiest boats Catalina ever built are the Capri 26 and the Catalina 28, neither have faired well.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2007 :  09:55:17  Show Profile  Visit JimB517's Homepage
There was a Capri 26 on our dock for a while and I really liked it.

There was a Catalina 28 on our dock for a few days and we all drooled over it.

Too bad I didn't get to sail on either.

I never looked at a Benetau 23 but I did find a Cat 22 was too small.

My friend has an S2 28 footer and its a great boat but slow and it will never ever beat its rating of 164. I've also sailed a Cal 29 and I really liked it. I didn't like a 1 cylinder Faryman diesel.

However, it seems to me for a small family sailing with 2 to 5 people a 28 is just about right.

I believe the C25 is comfortable with 1 to 3 maybe 4. If you race with 4, one will end up being rail meat/foredeck, there is nothing for 4 people to do in the cockpit.

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Fantasy II
1st Mate

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USA
80 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2007 :  12:05:52  Show Profile
My wife and I have owned three Catalina 25 fixed keel tall rigs, but we have recently sold our last 25 and purchased a 1988 C-27. Why?

First the headroom! My wife is 5'2" so didn't mind that it was I who kept bumping my head in the 25. But I really got tired of the knots on my head going forward!

Second, we are both getting on in age, and limit our sailing to the Sacramento San Joaquin river delta now, with occasional trips down to San Francisco bay. We just love the Universal diesel's reliability and the wheel steering, now equipped with an autopilot!

But the search for a C-27 demanded that we find a late-model with all the improvements Butler incorporated as time went on. The late 27s have the same improvements as the late 25s, making them almost a different boat than the early ones. Our search took us far south to Dana Point where we found Deja Vu. A thorough survey and sea trials proved that this was the boat for us. so we had it shipped north.

The only improvements we have made are: complete replacement of all standing rigging and mast lighting and of course the autopilot.

The Catalina 27 is a heavy, stiff-sailing boat and our configuration was chosen not to race, of course - just very comfortable sailing. We both think that this boat will be our last and so far it has lived up to our expectations.

So I guess that it's time for me to move to the Admiralty section of this forum, but we are staying around here forever

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brrit
1st Mate

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80 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2007 :  13:20:53  Show Profile  Visit brrit's Homepage
Jim:

Your website is great!

I have family in Laguna Niguel and have almost moved out there a few times (just can't swallow the housing costs). Thanks for all the great pictures.

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bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2007 :  20:36:45  Show Profile
Michael - if you are going to berth your boat and not trailer it then I would say go with the 27. I know that is heresy on this forum but the headroom is what you will like (or miss). Now all you 25'ers don't get me wrong - I LOVE my 25!! I have recently bought a Catalina 34 but I still love sailing the 25, which I still do often single-handed. Wind Dancer was my first boat and we still have a special relationship for sure, but every time I bump my head (it's not a pop-top and I'm only 5'8") I wonder what a 27 would be like. Plus there is a Cat27 that is always #1 or #2 in our local Beer Can races!! From an expense point of view there won't be that much difference between the two. The standing and running rigging and sails will only be very slightly more expensive on the 27. Engine maintenance costs will be much closer especially if you get the O/B. Counterpoint: I've heard that the Atomics really stink up the cabin - so check it out. I will say though that when I sail a boat with a diesel I love it. I don't have to lean over, raise/lower it, pull it to get started (always thinking 'will it start??') and all that ... just turn the key. The Admiral loves the diesels too because she cannot handle the O/B on the 25 - so if I were to be go MOB on Wind Dancer I would probably DIE if it were just her and me. She knows how to sail but she's not trained on the MOB drill ... yeah I know, I need to get her up to speed there:). So, there's my 2 cents. Either way you'll be happy so go for it.

(PS - I've never sailed a 27 so I don't know how they sail but I'm guessing as good or better than the 25)

Edited by - bbriner on 10/13/2007 10:48:20
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Michael B
Deckhand

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USA
13 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2007 :  22:11:04  Show Profile
Thanks Bill,
I appreciate the info.I am tall guy being,6' 4" so the 27 might be the ticket.The 25 I sail has the pop top but it doesn't work and I have bumped my head a few times.Most of my sailing on it has been local with no overnights so I haven't spent much time in the cabin.I just like the way they sail.I think I would like to stay with a outboard engine.I'm a big guy and it looks very cramped around those inboard engines.Working on them looks like a nightmare.I'll keep you posted.Thanks again.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2007 :  16:42:24  Show Profile
The Capri 26 is a nice boat. I occasionally crew on one for club races. The appointments inside seem to be very comfortable. But I have to say, it doesn't point very well at all, especially against S2-7.9's and Northstar 500's, which are the primary "big" boats on our lake. Incidentally, for all you trivia buffs, I'm told that we have the largest Northstar 500 fleet in the world at our club,10 boats! Hehe! If you know of a single club with more, I'd like to know. It's a 25 ft, 1/4 ton class boat from the 1970's, built in Canada and popular on the Great Lakes, but apparently Howard Hughes didn't make very many of them. The guys here, primarily racers, just love them. Flat decks, very solidly built, mast steps through the deck to the keel, but definitely not a cruising boat.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2007 :  10:26:05  Show Profile
If memory serves, I believe the vberth in the C27 is a little shorter than the C25. Either the 25 or 27 would be a little tight for someone 6'4".

I agree with Jim that the C25 is a little faster than the C27, but, for racing it's always more fun to race against a lot of boats of the same design. I don't know of anyplace where a significant number of C25s are actively raced, but there are lots of places where C27s are actively raced. If I was in such an area, then I'd choose a C27, but, if not, then I'd choose the C25, because it's simply a better performer. But, the best situation of all would be if you can race the C25 against the C27s on handicap, because, even though the 25 is faster than the 27 in most conditions, the 27 has to give handicap time to the 25 under every rating system I've seen. Now that's a good deal - the slower boat has to give up a handicap time allowance to the faster boat!

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piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2007 :  22:56:03  Show Profile  Visit piseas's Homepage
Bryan, If you think the housing costs are high in SoCal, check out the slip fees! It will kill you. But I feel lucky to have both and a 250 as well. Next time you come to visit your family in LN, look me up. I till talk you out for a little coastal sailing.

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britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2007 :  07:16:50  Show Profile  Visit britinusa's Homepage
FWIW, my city has a limit of 26' max boat size at resdidential properties.

(Odd really because the limit for RV's is 35' --- go figure!)

Paul

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2007 :  12:13:45  Show Profile
Paul: Some friends kept a C-30 on a trailer near their house (hauled to and from by a professional)... It seemed a lot bigger than a 35' RV!

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Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2007 :  14:39:17  Show Profile
Bill Briner and I both moved up to C34s, which is way beyond what you asked, but the purpose of this reply is to comment on the C28. I, too, thought it a lovely boat and perfect for the "next step" up from a C25 for those who didn't want (for whatever reason) the size of a C30. It has been noted eslewhere and here on this board that other than the headroom, the C27 interior is about the size of, if not less than, a C25. However, I think the C28 has turned out to be Catalina's worst cost-to-value ratio of any boat they ever made, even including the new over-$100K C309! As far as bang for your bucks, as nice as the C28 is, it just isn't worth it, especially given the C27s and C30s surrounding its size, new or used.

For those considering moving up, check the Admiralty section of this board. Many have made a two-step and don't regret it. I think that the C25 is a perfect training ground for being able to sail almost anything. That's because the proportions of the boat and the systems on the C25 are NOT toys, they're REAL sailing gear, and will teach you everything you need to know to sail almost any (reasonably) sized boat, check out the singlehanded thread, too.

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 10/17/2007 14:42:11
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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2007 :  16:55:43  Show Profile
While down at the boatyard today, I saw this C27 with a rather interesting mod. It looks like a kiwi-esque HULA...




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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2007 :  16:59:24  Show Profile
Interesting mod. Looks like the owner is going for a longer waterline length, i.e. hopefully more speed. Notice the notch in the mod for the outboard motor shaft. Bet the owner also has or is going to install in-cockpit remote controls for the o/b.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2007 :  11:36:39  Show Profile
I'm guessing he likes the new "sugar scoop" transoms as swim platforms--thus the steps he's put on the side. His waterline won't increase except maybe a little bit under pretty substantial heel. Upright, it doesn't increase at all.

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