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Jib sheets

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Nancy Cole
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/04/2002 : 11:37:35

Greetings

I thought I was done for the year - foolish thought. Was just reading a string on singlehanding and decided to install cam/clam/clutches for my jib sheets. Where would they go in relation to the winch? And waht is the best device to use.

Nancy Cole
By George C-25/78/#501
New London, CT

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2002 : 12:45:30

Hi Nancy...

Since it's too hot and still out on LIS today, I'll tell you what I'm thinking of doing. (Don't take it too seriously--I haven't decided much less done it yet.)

I like the idea of clam cleats--easy to lay the sheet into it, and easy to lift it out. A cam requires a little pull to get a line into (meaning maybe a slight turn on the winch handle) and can develop so much pressure under load that you have to pull back to release it--again requiring the winch. (Never submit to the temptation to open the cleat with your finger while laying a sheet into it!) As I see it, clutches are not useful here--the sheets would be permanently captured in them, making winch wrapping rather complicated.

The complication with clams is that, from a couple of wraps on the winch, the sheet is coming down to the cleat at an angle that would keep it from holding in a clam. One solution is a wedge (teak or plastic). Before I go that route, I'm thinking about placing the clam in such a way that I can lead the sheet off the winch, a half turn or less around the horn cleat, and into the clam. Thus, the horn cleat only directs the sheet level to the clam--it isn't really holding it. I need to play with that idea a little, and if I don't like it, I'll use a couple of teak wedges.

Now, somebody turn on the fan out there!!

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/04/2002 12:47:34

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2002 : 15:42:25

Nancy - usually I agree with Dave, but there are exceptions...I'm a great advocate of cam cleats for the jib sheets. I upgraded my winches so have to mount the cleats on a riser to get the correct lead angle. I've never had a problem cleating or uncleating even under high load - the easiest way is to hold a short loose length of sheet coming from the winch and then "snap" it upwards.(It helps if the mounting bolts are not completely tightened, which allows the jaws to open easier).
I think that the original horn cleats are an abomination and should be dropped overboard! When installing new cam cleats you need to line up the jaws with the edge of the winch from which the sheet comes. BTW - Ronstan makes the lesser expensive cams and they are equally as good as the original Harken model - in fact my crew like them much better.
Derek

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2002 : 17:30:18

I ditto what Derek says. The Ronstan cam cleats are made from a composite material for high strength and long life. I've had mine for four seasons. We don't even give the Ronstan cleats a thought. They just work without issue (and we crank our sheets in pretty tight!) and show no signs of wear or deterioration.

Edited by - on

Mike Vaccaro
1st Mate

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77 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2002 : 07:08:32

Nancy,

We use Harken cam cleats, raised 1" on stayboard risers (cut and sanded to match the shape of the base of the cam cleat). The cleats are aligned with the appropriate side of the winch! Ours are oriented at a 90 degree angle to the winch (i.e., designed for some one tailing between the winches)...this is optimized for racing with a crewmember working the jib sheets. If you single hand, you might consider orienting the fairlead to cams aft toward the tiller, allowing the helmsman to easily cleat or uncleat the lines. Recommend the largest cam commensurate with your jib sheets and and an appropriately sturdy mounting. The cam will share the load with the winch if you've got at least one wrap, but especisally if the cam is raised, you'll want the sturdiest mounting you can get, and using a large cleat will allow you to through-bolt the deck with appropriately backed 1/4 machine screws. A lot more inexpensive than self-tailing whinches, cam can be sized for any size sheet, and a faster unsheet if you race.

Cheers,

Mike Vaccaro on the "Swoose"
84 TR/SK #4707

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2002 : 17:28:35

As for where to mount them, as Mike essentially said, orient them to the direction the sheets will be tailed. You mentioned single-handing. I added clam cleats and oriented them about a 45 degree angle (toward the helmsperson) thinking single-handing. They work great single-handing, but with a crewperson handling the jib, they're not in line with the tailing efforts. So that's a decision to be determined by intended use. Put a set for each direction?

I like clams for similar reasons as what Dave mentioned, and that's what I was used to. I've had problems unloading a cam cleat in higher winds. But then clams can release accidentally at the worst time. Bump the line with your foot and, bam, there goes the jib. Although, I like the idea of it releasing a little too easy when you don't need it to, than being difficult to release when you do need it to. Either one, IMHO, needs a wedge of some sort to line up with the angle the sheet comes off the winch. Clutches don't belong on sheets, better suited to halyards.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

swarchitect
1st Mate

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USA
41 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2002 : 08:58:08

Can anyone post a picture of where and how they installed these different Jib cleats? After installing the roller furling and new 135 last weekend, I definately want a different cleating method.

After reading previous threads on this topic, (and perhaps based on my experiences Hobie sailing) I purchased the cam cleats, but have not decided yet where to install them.

Any help would be appreciated

Scott Webb
LeHannah #3134
Fixed keel, standard rig

Edited by - on

Jeff
1st Mate

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37 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2002 : 19:18:03

I installed Harken cam cleats and have been very happy with them.

One advantage of the cams over the clams is that they accept a wider range of line sizes. I use three different sets of sheets depending on wind velocity. 3/16" for very light breezes 0 - 5 kts. 5/16" for breezes between 5 and 15 kts. 3/8" for heavy air above 15 kts. The cam cleats handle them all without difficulty. I've never had the line jamb. The Harkens are plastic composit. They have a soft tooth design that are easy on the line, but don't slip a bit. The line goes in and out effortlessly .

I used the old horn cleats as a fairlead for the cams. So the sheet comes off the winch, under the forward facing horn, then to the cam. The cam is mounted about 9" aft of the horn cleat, and a little outboard. I didn't need any blocks. Mounting involved drilling holes for the two #10 machine screws per cam. I just used SS fender washers for backing. The installation worked out so that the washers and nuts live in the "overhead" of the cockpit cubbies.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2002 : 20:53:38

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I installed Harken cam cleats...

I used the old horn cleats as a fairlead for the cams. So the sheet comes off the winch, under the forward facing horn, then to the cam. The cam is mounted about 9" aft of the horn cleat, and a little outboard. I didn't need any blocks. Mounting involved drilling holes for the two #10 machine screws per cam. I just used SS fender washers for backing. The installation worked out so that the washers and nuts live in the "overhead" of the cockpit cubbies.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Perfect! I'm sold. The cleat/fairlead solution is just what I envisioned, but you've talked me into the cams. Off to West.....

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Marc Demaree
Deckhand

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15 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2002 : 14:40:34

I just got an opportunity to read this thread and plan on doing the same with my jib sheets. I love the idea of using the horn cleat as a lead to the cam cleats (My wife likes to hold onto them when she is on the rail). A couple of questions: What size Harken or Ronstan cam cleats should we use? and, I would think a fairlead coming off the cam would be a good idea for singlehanding, but I'm afraid it will be very inconvenient to get additional wraps around the winch. Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Marc
Winsome C-25/79/1481

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2002 : 16:16:40

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
What size Harken or Ronstan cam cleats should we use?
My Ronstans are medium

and, I would think a fairlead coming off the cam would be a good idea for singlehanding, but I'm afraid it will be very inconvenient to get additional wraps around the winch. Any thoughts?
I think I'm misunderstanding what you are proposing. I've never seen fairleads on winch camcleats. You want to be able to unwrap sheets off the winch quickly for racing or in emergencies. A fairlead mounted on a camcleat could interfere (or get tangled) with sheet release. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2002 : 22:18:54

Marc: I agree with OJ on having no fairleads. But the cam cleat needs something to resolve the angle from the winch with several wraps on it--otherwise, it won't hold. One solution is a wedge under the cam that aligns it with the winch drum. Another is positioning the cam so the horn cleat can serve as a fairlead--one that will not prevent a quick release and unwrapping the winch. I can't think of another solution that really works. A fairlead "after" the cam cleat (if I understand your question) would prevent releasing the sheet from the cleat.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2002 : 00:16:03

I cannot imagine any way that the horn cleat can be brought into the equation and still allow quick release from the cam. Going back to the K.I.S.S. principle - use a riser (made by Harken or Ronstan and designed to have the same footprint as the cam) and throw away those @#$%^&* horn cleats which hurt like heck when you accidentally sit down on one! <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2002 : 17:29:32

Nancy

I know this may be after the fact, but...

Why bother with additional cleats?

One of the best purchases we ever made on our C25 (1981 SRFK) was to buy and install winchers on the non-self-tailing winches. Never ever had to worry about the end of the jib sheets again.

They are probably about as expensive as two whatever cleats you've been discussing.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2002 : 21:50:11

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I cannot imagine any way that the horn cleat can be brought into the equation and still allow quick release from the cam.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Derek: The idea is to position the cam so that the sheet comes off the winch, hooks under one "horn" of the horn cleat (barely turning at all), and lays into the cam cleat. The horn cleat only holds the sheet down to line up with the cam. To either trim or release, you release the sheet from the cam unhook it from the horn. Actually pretty KISS-oriented.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2002 : 19:06:39

Thanks Dave - I now have a visual picture (I'm imagination challenged!). But - wouldn't this put the cam cleat too far aft for the crew to use with ease? (Personally - as if you couldn't tell! - I think that horn cleats are an abomination for cleating sheets and my crew applauded when I removed them - they made hiking out very painful <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>)
Derek

Edited by - on

Walt
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2002 : 10:29:22

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Where can you get the winchers for the C25 Stu ?

Nancy

I know this may be after the fact, but...

Why bother with additional cleats?

One of the best purchases we ever made on our C25 (1981 SRFK) was to buy and install winchers on the non-self-tailing winches. Never ever had to worry about the end of the jib sheets again.

They are probably about as expensive as two whatever cleats you've been discussing.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2002 : 15:42:45

Here's some at West Marine -- http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001& langId=-1& catalogId=10001& productId=72183

Searching the net might produce a lower price. Using hot, soapy water makes installation much easier.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2002 : 22:57:07

Regarding winchers: Make sure your sheets will fit into the grooves. My sheets are too fat, so now I have a pair of Winchers waiting for me to buy a new jib sheet. That may be a long wait... The Admiral likes the fat line.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2002 : 12:31:59

Dave & Others
Re: Wincher Grooves

You DO NOT use the grooves for the sheets. You don't have to wait to use them.

The way the winchers work is that the line (sheet) that is wrapped around the winch drum rises it engages the BOTTOM of the wincher, and thus self-tails.

You don't use the groove for anything.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2002 : 16:58:09

"You DO NOT use the grooves for the sheets....You don't use the groove for anything." - Stu Jackson

According to BoatUS,

<img src="http://www.boatus-store.com/Items/Small/338690.jpg" border=0>

"Molded rubber Wincher slips over the top flange of any nontailing winch, giving you the benefits of a self-tailing winch for a lot less money. Special ribs on the underside grip the top turn, allowing the tail to peel away after drum rotation. When winched home, the tail can be tucked into the ribbed groove between top and bottom flanges, keeping friction secure on the drum." - BoatUS Catalog

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Lake Erie

Edited by - on

tom
1st Mate

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USA
52 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2002 : 19:26:42

what size winchers fit stock cat 25

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Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2002 : 20:54:14

Don: I knew someone was going to quote that misleading and incorrect catalog information!!! :) I had intended to note that some catalogs incorrectly mention that, but figured I'd leave it short. The reality is no one ever bothers to tuck anything into the groove, PLUS, more importantly, the groove has not part of the function of the self tailing. Ya wanna use the groove? Go ahead, but it just doesn't do anything functional EXCEPT RAISE THESE KINDA QUESTIONS!! :) )

Tim: It's the size of the winch, not the size of the boat, that dtermines the size of the wincher. Find out what size winches you have and then check the literature (or their website) to find the right size wincher.

PS - Wincher's very own literature says they're great for halyard winches on masts, but they don't recommend them for jib sheet winches. Go figure, because that's what they're best for.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2002 : 22:44:42

Hey Stu... I don't know where you're getting that. I've sailed on boats with self-tailers and with winchers, and in both cases the grove can be used as a convenient way to hold the sheet after winching it in--no cleats required. I found winchers to be better for that than for self tailing--except with my fat sheets. What were you thinking the groove was--a spoiler? <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

luckystar
Navigator

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USA
236 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2002 : 23:38:04

I used winchers for close to two years, they work great considering the cost!! But I went to self tailers this year. One thing I noticed about winchers is if you don't keep them covered, they bleach out quick and look horrible! Also, install them on a warm day with some soapy water and iron strenghth hands!!

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2002 : 17:21:34

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>the grove can be used as a convenient way to hold the sheet<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

When the wind is shifty and I'm making a lot of jib sheet adjustments, I tend not to put the line in the groove, simply letting the rubber ribs on the underside of the top of the winchers hold against the three wraps below it. I've only seen it slip once. But when I'm not making many adjustments, I tend to do the above, plus put the line in the groove, which I think creates an extra level of holding power. The winches are self-tailing (sort of) either way.

I too have pretty fat jib sheets and for some time also thought they wouldn't fit into the groove. But I found in practice that if I pull the jib sheet outward and against the groove just right (without allowing the winch to turn), the diameter of the jib sheet is reduced enough to let it slip in.

As a cruiser, I have found that I really like winchers and would not consider spending the money required to get true self-tailers. However, it appears that the vast majority of racers on this forum do not like winchers.

I believe I have size "small" winchers on my size 7 Lewmar winches. At first glance, it appeared that there was no way it would fit. But after taking the advice of my slip neighbor (heating the wincher in hot water and putting warm, soapy water on the winches), they popped on pretty easily. The "if it doesn't fit, force it" philosophy doesn't seem to work here -- definitely requires the "mind over matter" approach.

And I agree it's wise to use winch covers to keep the rubber from degrading in the sun, salt, etc.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

Edited by - on

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