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Do you swear "by" or swear "at" your Honda?

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/06/2002 : 19:20:14

"Honda four stroke long shaft 8 HP outboard. It will not hold a low idle" - Gerdo

"I had a similar problem with my Honda 7.5 4-stroke." - John Mason

"Just dropped my '80's model Honda 10 hp off at Honda dealer today at lunch for the exact same problem." - B. Jones

"...7.5 Honda...noticed a broken casting on my pull cord housing..." - Todd Frye

"Month or so ago I had problems with my older Honda OB not running." - Doug

"I just had my Honda apart for a similar problem." - Douglas

"Old Honda's in particular are prone to clogged idle jets. The jet is semi-accessable on the 9.9HP, but a pure !@#$%&* to get at in the 7.5HP" - Leon Sisson

Just three weeks ago the sailboat across from me had their Honda die on them as they pulled out of their slip and had to do some fancy manuevering to get back in. The motor has now been off the boat for three weeks. Early on in the season, another Honda owner couldn't get his motor going either, although after several hours of tinkering and swearing, he eventually got it going.

Does anyone else see a trend here? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> I'm not trying to start an anti-Honda diatribe, but, it seems that most outboard problems(operation, service, accessories,...etc) addressed in this forum usually have the word "Honda" in them. I know a lot of you swear by your Hondas, but all of this talk doesn't exactly give me a "warm n' fuzzy" feeling about them.

My current motor, a 95' 8hp Mercury, has never given me a lick of trouble and purrs like a kitten. On my last boat I had a 79' 9.9hp Johnson that still had the original factory plugs in it when I bought the boat in 1995. This motor started on the first pull and never failed me in the 7 years I owned her. Up at my father's cottage, a neighbor of his is still using on a daily basis my Dad's old mid-70's Mercury that my brother inadvertently sent to the bottom of a lake in the 80's.

Don Lucier, North Star
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2002 : 20:46:02

Don,

I understand what you're getting at, however I'm not ready to jump to the conclusion that Hondas are horrible motors. However, I myself have owned several 7.5 and 10HP Hondas, and I now use a 4-stroke Yamaha on my C-25.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> Just as all boats are a compromise, there is no perfect boat motor. I can think of several reasons for the evidence you cite. Hondas are very popular. If they had the same percentage of problems as any other brand, and 90% market share, there'd be nine times as many Honda problems reported here as there would be for any other brand. Four-stroke carbs have much smaller fuel passages, so they get clogged easier, regardless of brand name.

However, if you'd like me to join in bashing older (B-100 series) Hondas, my least favorite design feature is the engine lubrication system. The oil pump is too small, producing barely enough pressure and volume to keep a new motor with fresh bearings oiled. Once an engine developes some loose clearances from wear, the oil pressure drops off. Also, that pump is located on the end of the cam, high above the normal oil level. At startup, this forces it to pull oil uphill while sucking in air and pumping that air to the crank bearings. The "oil filter" is a piece of wire mesh screen at the pickup point, much like the old air-cooled VW bug motors. (And just as inaccessable!) Unlike the venerable VW, there's no easy aftermarket conversion to an external paper element filter and high capacity pump (that I know of). So you've got this setup for rapid failure. As the bearings wear prematurely from prolonged dry running during startup, the wear particles are recirculated producing more wear. The worse the problem gets, the faster it gets worse.<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> One of these engines can go from running smooth and quiet to eating itself alive in a distressingly short time if the oil isn't changed with religious frequency. Of the fleet of dead Hondas in my garage, one or two died of main bearing failure at low RPM.<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

Two more died of combustion chamber blow-out at the top of the upper cylinder. This seems to be caused by a high concentration of sea salt that collects there at the hottest, highest point just after shut down as the water drains back out of the still hot motor. The salt starts to form a pit, which can then trap and hold more salt next time. Eventually the salt pit eats through the combustion chamber wall.<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

One spare motor seems to have died in it's sleep from stuck rings when I left it sitting too long. (More my fault than Honda's.) I've also seen them "lock up" from rust on the flywheel magnets hitting the stator cores. That's easy to fix once the problem is correctly diagnosed.

Yes, 2-strokes are a well proven design that just keeps on running year after year. They also keep right on dumping 25% to 30% of their fuel, and almost all of their oil, into our waterways unburned.<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> This is part of why they get about half the fuel economy of a 4-stroke.<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle> If you need more info on this part, rest assured there's enough available to make you sick to your stomach.<img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>

-- Leon Sisson

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Randall
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123 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2002 : 21:21:48

Um-m-m-m, I hate to wade into this because I have always been a stalwart fan of my '93 Honda 5 horse. I bought it new, and it was a HUGE improvement over the tired Suzuki 3.5 it replaced. But since day one it has had a tendency to stall out at low idle, usually when trying to maneuver into my slip.

It died completely this past Sunday when I was 30 feet from my berth at Lake West Point. My wife and daughter had flown in from Texas to see the new boat (79 TR/SK) and new lake. They were on board for the first time, and we were coming in from a very nice day's sail. The wind had died down earlier, so we motored about for a while exploring coves to camp out in next weekend. The Honda always runs well on full throttle, but I have always been afraid to idle it down too far. I estimated momentum needed to glide into our berth, put the motor in neutral and coasted toward the berth. the motor is mounted on the portside, so I was helming with my left hand, and was feathering the throttle with my right. I was planning to put it in reverse at the last instant to keep bow from meeting dock. Sure enough, the Honda died away at the crucial moment. I had just enough momentum to dock gracefully, and stopped by grabbing a dockline. However if the wind had been higher, or I had misjudged speed.......

I love my Honda, but I have NEVER, NEVER trusted it at idle, when I need it most. I've changed plugs, cleaned jets, adjusted mixture, cleaned filters, but it has always been shaky at idle. The choice has always been to idle down and risk stalling, or idling high and risk shearing a pin when changing gears.

Randall

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JJN
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2002 : 21:35:20

DOES YOUR MOTOR RESTART EZ AFTER IT STALLS. I HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM WITH MY 92 YAMAHA BUT IT WON'T RESTART RIGHT AWAY. IT STARTS AGAIN ABOUT HALF HOUR LATER.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2002 : 21:42:54

Leon,

I'm not "getting at" anything nor am I trying to bash Hondas, only making an observation from other peoples inquiries in this forum. Since I've never owned a Honda I cannot speak from personal experience, but since you have owned several,

"Of the fleet of dead Hondas in my garage, one or two died of main bearing failure...Two more died of combustion chamber blow-out at the top of the upper cylinder...One spare motor seems to have died in it's sleep from stuck rings..." - Leon Sisson

it appears you can speak to both their reliability and durability. I'm just curious as to the dependability of these motors considering that most C25's will probably be purchased with a used motor on them. And since motors are one of the higher ticket items on a boat, what motors should one look out for.

Don Lucier, North Star
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2002 : 23:22:18

Don Lucier,<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I'm not "getting at" anything nor am I trying to bash Hondas<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>I'm sorry if I seemed to be putting words in your mouth. I didn't mean to.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>... since you have owned several ... it appears you can speak to both their reliability and durability.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Yeah, I guess. I'd rather not be represented as some sort of Honda expert, but I suppose having killed several creates credentials in a way. A race car builder I knew once said that the value of his experience was proportional to the money invested in the pile of destroyed parts out behind his shop. For maybe ten years I was a factory trained Honda motorcycle mechanic, so when I autopsy an engine, I do have some idea what I'm looking at.<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I'm just curious as to the dependability of these motors ... one of the higher ticket items ... what motors should one look out for?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Based on my very limited experience, but strong opinions, if I was shopping for a C-25 motor, I'd be looking for a new or very healthy used Yamaha or Honda 10HP 4-stroke extra long shaft with electric start.

I think Honda got it almost right with those older engines. They just went a bit too far in the disposable lawnmower direction with the crank bearings and lube system. The combustion chamber corrosion problem could have been postponed with a tiny bit more aluminum in that spot, so that it both shed water and took longer to eat through. Generally speaking, I have a high respect for Honda engineering and build quality. Maybe I'm just harder on motors than I'm willing to admit, even to myself.

So far, I like my Yamaha a lot. On the other hand, I haven't had it as long as my pile of Hondas. Maybe in a few more years I'll be just as cynical about it's design as I've become about the old Hondas. I'm already not impressed by the water pump longevity or ease of replacement. Replacing the control cables was a whole lot more hassle than I thought it needed to be too. Speaking of which, those are not what I'd call "marine duty" cables except for the price tag. Under their thin plastic skins, they're made of carbon steel, not stainless. See? Give me a few minutes and I can nit pick anything! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

-- Leon Sisson, Self-Appointed Techo-Curmudgeon

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gerdo
Navigator

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107 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2002 : 11:48:30

Wow! talk about pent up venting, but each and every one is a good read. Randall you described my problems exactly. The 8 hp honda runs great at open throttle but it always fails at low idle coming in to slip. Only hit bow once, now have snupper lines I drop on winch to act as parking brake. We will collectively conquer the issue or as Leon did move onto Yamaha! Their high thrust 8 hp 25 inch shaft is electric start and electric tilt. Sounds good but is expensive.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2002 : 13:02:29

The Yamaha H/T 8 is a nice package, but the show-stopper for me was NO PULL STARTER. Where my new electic-start Honda 8 has a traditional pull-handle for backup, the Yammi has a smooth, stylish plastic cowl. If your battery suddenly isn't up to it, you'll have to take of the cowl and get your wrench out--the fly wheel cover has to come off, too. You guys with two batteries will probably be fine... Me, I'm just a traditional guy.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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Tony Dillon
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USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2002 : 14:08:10

I am happy with my old (94) yamaha 8. Starts by the second pull and runs very smooth for a 2 cycle. But the easist one I have is my 1930s Evenrude Elto 1.5. It sat unused for 30 years in the corner of my dads shop, 20 minutes with carburetor cleaner, starts first time.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Tony Dillon
Mental Floss

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John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2002 : 15:24:06

My '82 Cat 25 came with a 7.5 Honda (probably bought new with the boat-it's the same vintage). First season it ran great every time, started first pull. Beginning of this (second) season, it wouldn't idle. Took it in to the dealer, dirt in the carb. $37 later runs fine.

BUT, the first season something kept nagging at the back of my mind every time I looked at the motor. Then it hit me, this was the same kind of motor that was on a friend's Tanzer 22, that wouldn't idle and would cut out at the worst times and not restart, when we were sailing the Gulf Islands north of Puget Sound for a month back in '81. So I went over and talked to him about it.

He remembered that most of the problem came from overheating due to salt build up. He thought the cooling passages were too small, but solved the problem later by removing the thermostat. He thought a good fresh water flush every so often would alleviate that problem. So far, my motor hasn't experienced that problem, just the dirty carb, but it's running fine at the moment.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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MarkTM
Navigator

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USA
178 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2002 : 16:07:43

Can't speak about the older Hondas, but my 1998 9.9hp xls has worked flawlessly since I bought it four years ago. Granted, it does not have to cope with a harsh saltwater environment. The only time I encountered the "stall during idle" syndrome was just after the yard guy took my boat to have it bottom-painted the first time. He knew enough to use the choke to get it started, but he didn't know enough to turn it back off after a few seconds. He did a good job of fouling my plugs.

Rather than always run the motor five minutes to get in and out of the slip, I try to run it for an hour or more quite often. I assume this is better for it, no?

All in all, I think the newer Hondas are great outboards. Downsides include the limited number of dealers (at least in my area) and the fact that you have to go to an authorized dealer to find parts commonly available at general marine supply stores for other makes. Based on their good reputation, I bought my motor from a Canadian dealer in Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario. They shipped it to Texas via common carrier in a cool steel framed case. Total cost was about 60% of what I would have paid locally. Warranty claims would have been the only issue. Thankfully, I didn't have to ship it back to Canada for warranty work because the motor has run well since purchase.

BTW, this dealer can no longer ship to buyers in the US because of American dealers whining about the competition. You have to go visit them to get the deal. There was also a dealer in Idaho who had to stop internet sales because of the whining of their competition. [An interesting side note: the Canadian dealer says he can sell and ship me the Honda EU2000 generator because the parent company hasn't put the breaks on generators . . . yet]

Mark Melchior
C250wb "Lorelei" #384
[url="http://www.texassailor.com/"]<img src="http://www.texassailor.com/texas.gif " border=0>[/url]
(click flag to visit Central Texas Sailor)

Edited by - marktm on 08/07/2002 16:20:36

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Doug C.
Navigator

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USA
146 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2002 : 16:32:48

Lots of good info here. Now I've got a bit of a decision to make. Just purchased a 1990 C25 with a 1990 Johnson 9.9 Sailmaster with electric start. It starts, it idles, haven't really had a chance to run it for awhile to see if it has nasty habits.

My Windrose has a 1982 Honda 10 hp manual start, that seems to run good, I have already rebuilt the carb. It is a fairly easy motor to work on.

Do I stick with the Johnson or swap for the Honda? I like the 4 cycle but the electric start and newer vintage has it's point too.

The Windrose will be sold after some cleanup so I won't have the option for long.

Thoughts?

Edited by - Doug C. on 08/07/2002 16:33:53

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2002 : 17:23:07

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Do I stick with the Johnson or swap for the Honda? I like the 4 cycle but the electric start and newer vintage has it's point too.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Hmmmmm... I like our new Honda, but... Which one has the longer shaft? What kind of waves do you have to deal with? How important is the electric starter to you? (It ranks high for me, especially so the Admiral can start it in a situation.)

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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jellyfish
Navigator

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USA
171 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2002 : 13:35:39

I am happy with my 8hp Johnson. it idles well, always cranks with one pull on the cord, even easy enough for Admiral to crank. when she needs service or tuneup she is light enough to remove from the boat by myself. something that couldnt be said for the 9.9 4stroke yamaha I use to have, which wouldnt idle was hard to crank even with the elec start. draw backs of course are the eco thing, fuel econo, and not really powerful enough in a head wind followed by out going current. fuel econo no big deal cause it doesnt take too long to motor out and get the sails up, same for the head winds, get the sails up and beat to weather, the only real problem is the polution! all in all I will take the little Johnson anytime. she is dependable and that is the most important thing!

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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1775 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2002 : 13:46:55

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
... even easy enough for Admiral to crank. when she needs service or tuneup she is light enough to remove from the boat by myself.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Hey Dan ... for a minute there I thought you were talking about your Admiral! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2002 : 15:01:11

Ya... Since when did we start using the feminine gender for our outboards? That'll take some getting used to. <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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jellyfish
Navigator

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USA
171 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2002 : 18:04:47

well guys they are both easy to get cranked up. while one hums and the other screams I really perfer that the one that screams hum and the one that hums scream! oh but for the perfect world!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/12/2002 : 20:26:19

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
well guys they are both easy to get cranked up. while one hums and the other screams I really perfer that the one that screams hum and the one that hums scream!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
In behalf of the Association, my apologies to Cathy, Nancy, and all of the Admirals out there. On to better things...

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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jellyfish
Navigator

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USA
171 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2002 : 11:06:30

Dave, if apologies are in order, I should apologize for myself. I dont know about the other ladies on board but my Admiral is never offended by a little humor. Any ladies that were offended by my remarks Im truely sorry! for all the other ladies, feel free to throw your jokes about dumb men at me, there is no thin skinned folks on the Jellyfish!

sincerely, Dan

Edited by - on

cathluk
Admiral

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USA
513 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2002 : 15:13:47

No offense taken on my part and I'm sure my husband will get a laugh out of your remarks!<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Cathy
"Blown Away"
'97 C250WK #253

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jellyfish
Navigator

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171 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2002 : 17:43:08

thanks Cathy, April(my Ad) after a couple of beers starts in on her blonde jokes and can make a drunken sailor(pun intended) blush. and of course she is a blonde herself!

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RoofRoof
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186 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2002 : 20:57:25

I just purchased a brand new never titled 2001 Honda 8 hp extra long 25"shaft motor.

First time I tried to start it, it took me about 30 minutes. Very Un-Honda like.

2 weeks later tried to start it again with the same problem. And both times, after it did start, it barely ran, and hessitated when I gave it any throttle. Have to really baby it, giving it any throttle. OK, now I've got about 45 minutes running time on it and decided to call the dealer. They wanted $100 to come check it out. Ok, no choice. Guy came out and said that the idle was set way too low which precluded it from starting easily, and that the "transition" valve (allows the motor to transition from idle to rev) was bad somehow. He'd order the parts and should have them in 3 or 4 days. Well, I just remembered I haven't heard from him after a week. Will keep you posted.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/13/2002 : 21:22:28

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
OK, now I've got about 45 minutes running time on it and decided to call the dealer. They wanted $100 to come check it out. Ok, no choice. Guy came out and said that the idle was set way too low which precluded it from starting easily, and that the "transition" valve (allows the motor to transition from idle to rev) was bad somehow. He'd order the parts and should have them in 3 or 4 days. Well, I just remembered I haven't heard from him after a week. Will keep you posted.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

What you have descibed above is also very Un-Honda like. Honda does a very thorough job of documenting every step in preping their products for delivery. Somebody really dropped the ball on this one. I'd write a letter to the regional/district manager with a copy to his/her boss.

Steve Madsen, aka "Consumer Nazi"

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2002 : 21:44:41

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I just purchased a brand new never titled 2001 Honda 8 hp extra long 25"shaft motor...

...They wanted $100 to come check it out. Ok, no choice. Guy came out and said that the idle was set way too low which precluded it from starting easily, and that the "transition" valve (allows the motor to transition from idle to rev) was bad somehow. He'd order the parts and should have them in 3 or 4 days. Well, I just remembered I haven't heard from him after a week. Will keep you posted.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Any discussion with the "guy" about the 3-year warranty? It doesn't cover trips to your boat, but my Honda dealer made a free off-hours housecall to my boat to fix a faulty throttle damper. (It wouldn't adjust to hold the speed.) As Steve says, if your motor was actually new--meaning never used, the dealer was responsible for setting up and test running it before delivery. Sounds like he blew it, and should be covering the $100--for the diagnostic trip and later for the repair trip.

I'd go to "the top"--by calling the location below, getting the General Manager's name, and then writing to this address:

Honda Marine Group
4900 Marconi Dr.
Alpharetta, GA 30005-8847
Tel: (800) 426-7701 | Fax: (678) 339-2670

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/13/2002 21:51:01

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mroettersr
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148 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2002 : 01:11:39

With all this discussion on Honda Outboards, I decided to stop at the local library to check out some repair manuals. I was surprised that just about every motor brand was covered in the manuals (including Elgins, British Seagulls, etc.) but not Honda. I have a '93 8hp longshaft which runs fine although it idles a little high. I also have a literally new Evinrude 15 (about 5 hrs. running time) electric start longshaft(10x5 prop) leftover from a boat I sold over 20 years ago. I'm beginning to wonder if it wouldn't be prudent to put the Evinrude on the boat next spring. I'll check the Honda web site to see if repair manuals are available.

Mike Roetter
'83 C25 #3568 SK/SR

Mike Roetter
'83 C25 #3568 SK/SR

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Ray Seitz
Captain

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Response Posted - 08/14/2002 : 12:49:00

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I just purchased a brand new never titled 2001 Honda 8 hp extra long 25"shaft motor.

First time I tried to start it, it took me about 30 minutes. Very Un-Honda like.

2 weeks later tried to start it again with the same problem. And both times, after it did start, it barely ran, and hessitated when I gave it any throttle. Have to really baby it, giving it any throttle. OK, now I've got about 45 minutes running time on it and decided to call the dealer. They wanted $100 to come check it out. Ok, no choice. Guy came out and said that the idle was set way too low which precluded it from starting easily, and that the "transition" valve (allows the motor to transition from idle to rev) was bad somehow. He'd order the parts and should have them in 3 or 4 days. Well, I just remembered I haven't heard from him after a week. Will keep you posted.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Alan; I have exactly the same problem you described with my new 8hp Honda. I figured it was the automatic choke (bad idea IMHO). Having had some experience with several temperamental motorcycles I discovered that by rotating the throtle rapidly, as you would on a motorcycle at a stop light, I could keep it running long enough to get the motor to warm up. After that it would start in a second and run fine. I am pulling the boat out to trail it to Lake Erie this week and was going to have the motor looked at this week.

The only other problem I have had with the motor is the same as the problem that Dave mentions, which I find much more of a problem than the starting issue. I am happy with the Honda and wouldn't own anything other.

Ray Seitz C 250WB #628

Edited by - Ray Seitz on 08/14/2002 12:54:46

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