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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Balance and Handling

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KBeazley
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/06/2007 : 20:04:08

New to Sailing a Catalina 250

Catalina 1996 WB 2nd gen beaching rudder wheel steering pull pull

Item:

First serious three day sail three weekend's past.

Winds on Lake Texoma, a small inland sea to some were moderate 5 to 10 the first day. Very nice sailing. During the next two days it piked up to 10 to 15 on Saturday and 15 to 25 on Sunday. Waves 2 to 3 feet spaced no more than 5 feet apart.

Challenge - to maintain direction without being blown hither and to with weather helm. Main sail only reefed. Noted other larger boats having some weather helm with some gust to 32. Have been reading many of the postings and have learned allot from this experience.

Mods made before: Balanced beaching rudder as Arlyn has done.
Mods made since: Added 240 pounds under bow locker

Results sailing on Lake Whitney the next weekend was

awesome 5 to ten winds small chop and clear.

Problem: Boat still is very tender, will not track in a constant course helm needs constant adjustment, especially wants to wander to weather in the least gust

This lack of direction stability takes the fun out; cannot leave the helm alone or else one will be rounding up are be way off course.

Newbies get scared to take the helm because of the constant attention to the steering issue.

Help! Need your suggestions?

kbeazley
C250 WB #190 ?
Burleson, Texas

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2007 : 20:21:24

You could trade it in on a C25...

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2007 : 20:41:03

In the first scenario you were under main alone, with a masthead rig that is pretty much guaranteed to give you serious weather helm. Did you use a head sail in scenario two and still have weather helm or were you still under main alone? A balanced helm begins with a properly tuned rig, followed by a balanced sail plan. After you are certain about those two variables then try the bow ballast as needed.

Edited by - on

JohnMD
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2007 : 21:27:25

I have a 95 WB and had the same problems with what I believe was a 3rd generation rudder (they say it's balanced). Bad weather helm in but the tamest of days. It makes for a very long day when you have to constantly hold the tiller with both hands. I tried playing with the sails and raking the mast and adding a couple hundred pounds of ballast to the bow. Nothing helped much until I replaced the rudder with an IDA. No, I don't work for them. It honestly did get rid of the weather helm, tho. By the way, we also sail on Texoma. Let me know when you'll be out there again and I'll let you see for yourself.

Edited by - on

KBeazley
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2007 : 21:36:43

Thanks for recommendations and no I'm not switching to a C25 I'll just master the 250 idiosyncrasies and my lack of experience.

In the first situation on Texoma all boats out Sat and Sunday were using reefed main only. It was windy! spray was being blown off many white caps. Second trip to my favorite lake, Whitney was with main and jib. Plan to work with all suggestions of sail trim more. I suppose the slop in steering and lack of feedback is another issue that compounds the problem.

One clue that sail trim was an issue for me on Texoma that when I used motor and sail reaching I was not blown as much around.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2007 : 21:47:01

Like Frank noted, use the jib and furl. I assume its a 110 or 130. At least in my experience, you need both sails to stabilize the boat. The added weight in the bow also is a help although I don't have in mine but my PO said he added sandbags and it made an improvement.
Keep us posted and hang in there.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2007 : 22:24:22

Are you confident your kick-up rudder was all the way down? That's critical--failing to keep it there could destroy the rudder as well as make handling dicy. Reefing the main will help, too--especially if you're experiencing considerable heel. The C-250 wants to sail pretty upright, and directional control suffers as she heels. And a reefed main reduces weather helm forces. Also, the WB model has a deep but narrow centerboard (compared to the wing), which translates to somewhat "better responsiveness" to the tiller (to put a positive spin on it).

Edited by - on

AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2007 : 22:48:00

In 15 to 20 knot wind I reef both main and jib (it's a 110) and move the sheet track all the way leeward. On a close reach I bungee the tiller midship and with an occasional "tweak" it's hands off for up to 20 minutes. This is ocean sailing off Long Beach, CA. with 180 lbs of Home Depot river rock bags in the forepeak.

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bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2007 : 07:28:34

I also have a 95 WB and. I would first ask if you had a second reef point in your main sail. That makes a difference, first reef point for me is useless. I draw the swing keel up about a foot after it is down all the way. The biggest help was the installation of the IDA rudder. Last summer [what Summer there was] I sailed to windward with the tiller locked at will. I have no weight in the bow and the boat is balanced along her lines with out weight in the bow. Reefing the jib also helped, but using that second reef point and the IDA rudder I think helped the most.JMHO

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2007 : 08:23:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bear
 ...I draw the swing keel up about a foot after it is down all the way...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Good point! That moves the "center of lateral resistance" back, which is a big piece of the helm balance equation. I was always curious about the placement of the centerboard on the C-250, based on the drawings that compared the WB to the WK models. The CLR has to be further forward on the WB (board down all the way). But it should be easy to move back.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2007 : 09:32:47

First... resist any temptation to look for a one item cure to handling issues on the 250.

Bear points out two huge issues, the main does need another reef point... a deep one and the Center board certainly needs positioned raked aft.

And... the point made about having some headsail balance is helpful as well as rig tuning.

The 250 requires a tight rig in high winds. A powered up headsail will heel the boat excessively and sailing the 250 is about keeping it on its feet.

My addition to the comments of others has to do with your tracking comments. IMHO, the rudder you have is the best available for the 250 especially now that it is balanced some. It has the control ability needed.

My suggestion would be to examine two areas.
<ol type="1"><li>steering deadband</li><li>skeg</li></ol id="1">
Though the steering linkage has been upgraded to a pull/pull, it may be experiencing too much deadband. This issue has been discussed much in the past, the Edson pull/pull system does not employ arc compensation, plus the brackets that support the cables have not proved to be robust. This is likely especially true for the very high lift 2nd rudder your using.

Measure the deadband... if there is any at all, it will manifest itself as a tracking issue. The solution is to brace the two arms of the bracket so that they can't compress towards each other. One owner reported doing that with a wood spacer mounted between them.

Adjust the linkages with the rudder hard over for fairly tight cables as they will loosen towards center rudder position.

Skeg - I added a skeg to help handling. It was a simple effort carved from foam and mounted using spray adhesive. I contribute it to helping with tracking.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2007 : 17:39:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">with 180 lbs of Home Depot river rock bags in the forepeak<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Frank, any reason you use river rock vs sand or other material? Maybe I am wrong but it seems to me rock will take up more space than sand, pound for pound. Plus its kinda sharp. I stick my hand down there all the time!

Steve

Edited by - on

AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2007 : 18:32:37

River rocks are round and smooth. If a bag breaks, much easier to scoop 'em up than sand. But pound for pound I guess you can add a greater amount of weight with sand.

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frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2007 : 18:55:33

Don't forget to use the traveller also to dump wind. Move the traveller to leeward to dump wind , move it to windward to catch more.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2007 : 20:11:44

Traveler-down (leeward) helps flatten the sail, depowering it, which helps when beating into a strong breeze. On a reach, traveler-up can induce twist, which dumps air from the top of the sail (reducing heel) while maintaining power toward the bottom, for less heeling force.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/07/2007 20:12:54

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2007 : 07:31:42

I have to assume that you have no traveler since you have a WB so I will just share what I have done in 15 to 20 knot winds. I should mention that I also have a WB and that I have the IDA kick-up rudder, although I am pretty sure that isn't your performance issue if you have balanced it to Arlyns specs.
1. Dave is spot on with the "all the way down" concern. If the rudder is up even slightly, the weather helm becomes dramatic.
2. Bear also hit it with reefing. I don't even bother with the first reef point...if I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do it and it makes a Huge difference in control. Don't forget to reef the jib also...I tie the furling line off before I unfurl it as it can be tough to wind back in in higher winds, balance balance balance!
3. Finally, I'm not certain if there is scientific evidence for this but I drop my centerboard only about halfway...with the idea that I will be getting more lateral resistance, (think of the lateral resistance when the rudder kicks up slightly. It seems to work!
I have sailed my boat in steady 15 to 20's straight as an arrow using just the tiller tamer following these guidelines. I have never bothered with bow ballast. With all of that though...if you are sailing along in a 15 knot breeze and a 28 knot gust comes, you are going to round up or at least have to fight to keep from rounding up. I don't think you can rig a 25' boat for 28 knot winds, unless maybe you have a Pacific Seacraft or some other specifically blue water cruiser!

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2007 : 08:02:22

We battled with balance for about the first year. Added weight to the bow (we put enough stuff aft to need it: 2nd battery, extra fuel, AC unit and cruisin sutff.)

IMHO. The main is designed for use with a 135 jib and is oversized for a 110 jib (wish I had a 135!) so reefing early is key.

With the boat now balanced (haven't tried the keel up trick yet!) I can lock the wheel on a close haul and let the boat go. She'll hunt a bit but will keep turning back to track.

Yes, there is play in the rudder system too.

Paul
(heading off to Biscayne bay this weekend

)

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2007 : 10:00:24

Just another two cents on reefing the jib. When Doyle sails made me a new 110 jib a couple of years ago they put a small arrow on the bottom of the sail that shows approximately a 50% reef when that portion of the sail is unfurled.

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KBeazley
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2007 : 14:36:29

To be sure the centerboard is being keep up approx a foot or two. Secondly, I agree with Bear and Arlyn that a second reef would help; I don't have one yet.

Arlyn were did you find the skeg material?

Your post are helpful, I'm going to investigate that issue with deadband. Pictures or diagrams links? I'm really not sure what your talking about but I'll learn.

I'm looking or talking with Joel at IDA about a kick up rudder for the C250 WB with wheel steering...stay tuned it soon will be available!

Edited by - KBeazley on 11/08/2007 14:47:00

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2007 : 20:01:05

The 2nd beaching with the mods to the rudder head and hold down make for an exceptionally good rudder. I can't compare to the IDA, but it is hands down better than the Catalina 3rd water ballast design.

The skeg was made from some high density packing foam. I'd actually suggest making it from a piece of balsa wood and finish it with epoxy resin and then paint.

I'm not sure if it can be understood from the pic below what is meant by adding a spreader block between those two cable mount arms.

Perhaps I can come up with a drawing or add some drawing to the picture.

Edited by - on

KBeazley
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2007 : 20:11:00

Between wire clamps on port and starboard sides?

Between the yellow strips?
Between the blue strips?

horizontal mount or vertical?

The sag I reference is the circles in green; normal.

This obvious an original boat is not yours cable know?

Ken

Edited by - KBeazley on 11/08/2007 20:34:01

KBeazley
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2007 : 20:16:42

Oh, thanks! Arlyn, by the way how tight should the wires be as in the picture; on mine the assembly seems loose and hanging there as in this picture.

IDA kick-up rudder is cool the way it kicks up 180 degrees for storage, I don't know about the shock though. It suppose to be deeper below the water line than ours (2nd gen) and wider all the way down.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2007 : 22:32:02

I think the connections to the rudder in those pics is incorrect. It would seem that the port side should be connected to the top of the rudder connecting arm and the stbd cable conntected to the underside of the arm.

The way they are displayed would exaserbate the leverage that causes the arm to rotate along it's longitudinal axis.

Paul

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2007 : 07:47:31

The wood spreader spacer would be installed as per the black line in the pic below.

If your lines look loose like that in the pic or are hooked up wrong as Paul points out as are those in the pic... then they need attention. In the pic, the rudder is obviously removed (noted from the cant of the rudder arm), causing the appearance of a lot of slack. They probably didn't have much slack considering the arm properly aligned and that it is centered... but the hook up points are obviously reversed, others have found theirs reversed as well.

To adjust the cables, move the rudder to rudder lock position either way, then adjust cables for no slack but not so tight as to cause wear on the cable jackets... I'll call it firm tension. They may have some slack at center rudder position, nothing can be done about that as there is no arc compensation in the design.

As to the IDA rudder, it is shorter than the 2nd generation Catalina rudder if I recall correctly. There may be an exception or two to this... a couple of guys posted that they special ordered longer rudders from IDA and I don't recall how long they went.

The important point is that the Catalina 2nd rudder has all the rudder grip needed and when raked forward as you have done is reasonably balanced and has a great hold down system if you have made those mods, a hold down system that will auto return the rudder back into down position following a grounding. This advantage means a lot because instead of being out of control following a grounding, finding and installing a new shear pin, control is regained automatically as the bungee repositions the rudder back down.

Based on what I've read where subjectiveness is hard to come by... I believe the Catalina 2nd beaching to be the superior between it and the IDA. The reports have been that the IDA rudder reduces rounding up compared to the Catalina 3rd, whereas the Catalina 2nd eliminates rounding up compared to the 3rd plus having the automatic grounding recovery.

Edited by - on

KBeazley
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2007 : 08:46:06

Thanks Arlyn

A wood support between these two arms would dampening any inward flex then I would assume; would a steel rod between these also?

Are you still using your cable system? And, do you find it superior to this pull pull. Finnaly I have found many of the parts but no aluminum c channel except some 2 X 3.5 size. Where might one obtain this and high density foam you made your skegs of?

Do you have any kits left?

Ken

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