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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Catalina VS MacGregor

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piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/18/2007 : 23:31:32

As we were talking about MacGregors, I thought about starting a new
thread.
Here's a pic of my 250 next to a late 80's MacGregor 26.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
http://picasaweb.google.com/stephenaauerbach/July4th2007/photo#5084048933881476082
Here is another view. Note the spreaders:
http://picasaweb.google.com/stephenaauerbach/July4th2007/photo#5084048929586508738
Steve A

Previous Owner
PiSeas II
2003 C250 WK #692
Newport Beach, CA

Edited by - piseas on 11/18/2007 23:59:21

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
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Response Posted - 11/19/2007 : 14:01:35

We sure have nice boats don't we?

From the pictures, the C250 seems to sit higher on the water and more beamy. Looks like a C250 compared to a C22. Most modern Mac26 owners admit that their boat is more like an RV than anything else. I wonder how a C25 would look like next to a Mac26 of the same years?

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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Response Posted - 11/19/2007 : 16:59:09

Steve, I thought were not not too much difference between the 25 and 250 except for cosmetics, more or less. Go the the "Gallery" section and lets check it out. And I think the major change in the MacGregors is when the 26x came out and that's basically the same as the older ones as well, I believe.
Steve A

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 11/19/2007 : 22:55:15

I like the C25 layout and extra teak. I should have the chance to visit one this summer if I can catch up to Stampeder! I think the 26M is an attempt at having more headroom and feature pack and tending to a very different market. A market that wants a floating RV, ability to tow a skier, motor boat and even sail. As with any industrial design when you try to package too many features into one product it usually ends up not doing any of these features well.

What I really enjoy about my C250 is the heavier rigging that is similar on larger sailboats. I would enjoy a higher cabin but not if it mean't lower stability and sailing ability. I can live with the fact that we have lower headroom, but couldn't live with a low quality or unsafe product. The comparision between a C250 and a MacGregor carwise is probably a Ford Escort VS a Toyota Corrolla.

Nonetheless a MacGregor 26M is better than no sailboat at all. I'm just really happy with my decision on going with a C250, LARGELY influenced by this forum and I thank everyone who contributed and still help me with my newbie questions. I really miss my boat (it's going to be a long winter). To pass my urge I read this forum often.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/19/2007 : 23:33:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 Steve, I thought were not not too much difference between the 25 and 250 except for cosmetics, more or less...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Hardly. They're different from the bottoms of the keels up. The 250 hull is very different (beamier aft, WB option, open transom), no side-decks for greater interior volume, the rig is different (smaller foretriangle, single lower shrouds, swept spreaders)... The C-250 is designed more for trailerability and interior volume, while the C-25 is a heavier, more seaworthy design. About the only things in common are the overall length and this association.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Blackburn
 ...The comparision between a C250 and a MacGregor carwise is probably a Ford Escort VS a Toyota Corrolla...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Me thinks you got the analogy backward. But I'd say a Toyota Camry and a Chevy Cavalier.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/19/2007 23:40:28

Steve Blackburn
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Canada
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Response Posted - 11/19/2007 : 23:42:50

Yeah after rereading meself, me thinks I gots it backwards too. C250 begin the Toyota Corrolla is what I meant.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 11/20/2007 : 00:09:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The C-250 is designed more for trailerability and interior volume, while the C-25 is a heavier, more seaworthy design. About the only things in common are the overall length and this association.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well, not so fast there fella. The 25 Wing weighs 4400lbs and the 250 Wing weighs 4200lbs. Not much seaworthiness difference there. Neither of these is a blue water boat. You do have a lot of exterior teak, though.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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Response Posted - 11/20/2007 : 08:51:16

Dave, you made some good points but I meant those to be cosmetic. If you take a pic of a 25, a 250 and and 26 MacGregor, I think only one will look out of place.

I also didnt really mean anthing negative against the MacGregor, just noting WE have a really fine boat. My friend who has the MacGregor, would be the first one to admit that as well.
Steve
PS, Randy the difference in weight between the two is probably the extra wood the 250 lacks!

Edited by - piseas on 11/20/2007 08:53:40

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 11/20/2007 : 09:18:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The C-250 is designed more for trailerability and interior volume, while the C-25 is a heavier, more seaworthy design. About the only things in common are the overall length and this association.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well, not so fast there fella. The 25 Wing weighs 4400lbs and the 250 Wing weighs 4200lbs. Not much seaworthiness difference there...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When comparing seaworthiness between boats, instead of simply comparing total displacement, it would be better to compare the angle of vanishing stability, which takes into account keel/ballast weight. The C25 wing has 700lbs more ballast in the keel than the wing keel C250.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/20/2007 : 12:01:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck Well, not so fast there fella. The 25 Wing weighs 4400lbs and the 250 Wing weighs 4200lbs. Not much seaworthiness difference there...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and if you can find a C-25 with any keel (and no engine or other contents) that weighs only 4400 lbs, I'll eat... well, I'll be amazed.

5500 is more like it. I'm suspicious Catalina's understatement was intentional at the time... The C-250 was designed to be lighter, and I'm convinced that it is by a significant margin, starting with the keel (which has a big effect on stiffness and stability). As a C-25 owner, I never sailed the 250, but I've been aboard several, and the difference was apparent just walking around on deck. The C-25 was built to be transportable, and the C-250 was built to be trailerable (an evolving concept). They've both done their jobs well.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/20/2007 12:10:24

dlucier
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Response Posted - 11/20/2007 : 13:08:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Blackburn
 ...The comparision between a C250 and a MacGregor carwise is probably a Ford Escort VS a Toyota Corrolla...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Me thinks you got the analogy backward. But I'd say a Toyota Camry and a Chevy Cavalier.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Wouldn't a better analogy be Chlorox vs store brand?

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 11/20/2007 : 13:44:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Blackburn
 ...The comparision between a C250 and a MacGregor carwise is probably a Ford Escort VS a Toyota Corrolla...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Me thinks you got the analogy backward. But I'd say a Toyota Camry and a Chevy Cavalier.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Wouldn't a better analogy be Chlorox vs store brand?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not really, Sodium Hypochlorite solution is the same regardless of brand name.

Edited by - John Russell on 11/20/2007 13:45:16

dlucier
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Response Posted - 11/20/2007 : 14:09:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Blackburn
 ...The comparision between a C250 and a MacGregor carwise is probably a Ford Escort VS a Toyota Corrolla...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Me thinks you got the analogy backward. But I'd say a Toyota Camry and a Chevy Cavalier.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Wouldn't a better analogy be Chlorox vs store brand?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not really, Sodium Hypochlorite solution is the same regardless of brand name.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Wasn't really referring to the contents, only the bottle.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 11/20/2007 : 14:41:36

Sorry, but I don't buy the sailability vs trailerability stuff. The boats weigh about the same and both were designed to be trailerable boats for lakes and bays. There would be no reason for C25 retractable keels if not for the need to trailer easily including launch and retrieval.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 11/20/2007 : 15:20:42

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/20/2007 : 15:35:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Sorry, but I don't buy the sailability vs trailerability stuff. The boats weigh about the same and both were designed to be trailerable boats for lakes and bays. There would be no reason for C25 retractable keels if not for the need to trailer easily including launch and retrieval.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Trust me, they don't weigh anywhere near the same. As Don points out, the difference starts with the keels... They were indeed both built to fit on trailers, but the C-250 WB is a whole different, more contemporary approach to making a boat trailerable--less ballast (water or lead) offset somewhat by more form stability (beam and shape), simpler rig,... Numerous reports here have had C-250s outrunning C-25s in light air, and vice versa in heavier air. Catalina dropped the tall rig from the 250--why do you suppose--and even standard rigs want to be reefed earlier than C-25s do, even though the C-25 standard rig carries 15% more sail.

My point was simply that they're different boats, designed at different times, with different objectives and characteristics for sailing and for lugging around. Each has pluses and minuses compared to the other. I was responding to the "just cosmetics" statement--not trying to put down the C-250.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/20/2007 15:36:09

stampeder
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Response Posted - 11/20/2007 : 15:39:05

The C25 SK is a trailerable boat, I don't think it is in the category of 'transportable'.
When the C25 was first designed and built, gas was one quarter the price it is today. My trailer is designed to travel at highway speeds and is legal to do so. I can launch/retrieve by myself. The brochure says trailerable.

The only thing that renders it transportable vs trailerable, is the cost. I need a much larger capacity for generating the money required to move it from A to B....a thicker wallet in other words.
I've seen lots of C22's launch/retrieve and lower/raise masts - there is little difference in what I've seen them do and what I do to get my boat launched/retrieved.

IMHO a transportable boat is one that requires a professionaly equipped boat hauler.

Mac Bottles:
On our lake, there are many MacGregors, new ones and old ones - If you want to see one of the things that distinguish our boats from theirs, watch them on mooring balls. The MacGregors bounce around like Clorox bottles and our boats float like, well....like boats.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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Response Posted - 11/20/2007 : 15:58:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
[On our lake, there are many MacGregors, new ones and old ones - If you want to see one of the things that distinguish our boats from theirs, watch them on mooring balls. The MacGregors bounce around like Clorox bottles and our boats float like, well....like boats.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Mike, I like your analogy.
But guys, time to put up the white flag. Sorry in advance and as sappy as this sounds, we are all here sharing two common loves:Sailing and owning a Catalina,PERIOD. Lets all make-up, shake hands, and move on.
Steve A

Edited by - on

dwadle
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Response Posted - 11/20/2007 : 18:58:10

First of all, the 250 k and 250 wb are different boats. The wing keel is much more stable at the dock and sailing, however, it is difficult to get in and out of the water. The original Cat. 25 is still another boat all together. She is prettier, but does not have a walkthrough transom. She has a deck to walk around on, but you have to have size 6 shoes to do it. She is more seaworthy in a chop, but slower in light to moderate air. There are tradeoffs for each model.

Besides having a 250wk, I own a Santana 20 fin keel. Now if you want to sail a balanced boat, try this one. The best thing about her is her inboard rudder. I'd like Frank Butler to design a 22 or 25 with one.

I love all sailboats. They are like people in the sense that each one has its strenghs and weaknesses, their quirks and sensitivities, their beauty and their oddities. It is up to the sailor to appreciate them for what they are, and the pleasures/headaches they may bring.

hasta,
dmw

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stampeder
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Response Posted - 11/21/2007 : 15:01:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">But guys, time to put up the white flag<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We gunk hole nearly every weekend May-sept with a group of 3-6 other boats. I'm the only Catalina. The rest are MacGregors: varying from the Venture 22 to the newest Blue hulled 26M.
These people are all very boat proud, and are skilled sailors. I like them, I drink their beer. However, the only flag I'm willing to show is the yellow/blue party flag, hoisted whenever its my turn to open the beer cooler on a very nice 26 year old Catalina, that floats like a boat with 200+ LBS of newly refinished teak and which is lit up like a Xmas tree at night.

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