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Fin swing or wing performance at Nationals

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/28/2007 : 13:33:15

OK, Bill is one hell of a sailor and Longwind is one hell of a boat; that said, I think looking at the photos from the 05 nationals shows some interesting things.

Swingers:
Longwind
F&MH
sail #12262, (furler with wheel)

Fins:
This Side Up
Kansas Twister
Le'Coquillage
Sail #1895 (host of 08 nationals in OKC)

Wings:
Semper Fi (Now FellowShip)
Love and Luck

Here is the point, If you look at a fair number of photos I believe you will see that the swingers are more tender and point lower than either of the other keels.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 11/28/2007 13:34:37

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2007 : 14:59:41

Hard to believe the swinger isn't better to weather than the wing. Don't confuse "pointing" with "sailing higher". A boat can seem to be pointing very high, but due to leeway, can be actually sailing a lower course, especially in lighter air. The wings might be doing some of that in the photos. With enough wind and all other things being equal, the 5' deep swinger should sail away from the very shallow wing to windward.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2007 : 16:28:10

It looks like Longwind is pointing about the same, and is at about the same angle of heel as the others, and she is apparently near the head of the pack. It looks like she has more headstay sag than I would use in that much wind, but hey, it appears to be working for her. Maybe Bill cranked down the backstay adjuster right after the photo was taken. It's hard to tell things like that from still photos.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2007 : 17:08:00

In the photo above, it also looks like nobody has a motor on the stern. I haven't raced my 25 yet. Do class rules allow removing the motor? C-22 rules require a motor as mandatory safety equipment.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2007 : 19:23:42

Hard to make a definitive call about boat performance from a single photo. It's just one moment in time.

Sails, sail trim, ballasting... all variables. For example, look how deep the draft is on the mainsail of the boat furthest to starboard. (Too much draft, too many wrinkles on the luff by my eye... but the boat is obviously doing well at that point). The boat with the green bottom paint also has a very deep draft in the main. Steve has pointed out that 'Longwind' has what appears to be a lot of headstay sag.

Another thing that catches my eye is that both the windward boats have their crew positioned farther outboard than anyone else. That also makes a big difference to windward.

>"Don't confuse "pointing" with "sailing higher".

Words of wisdom there. I used to sail on a water-ballasted Mac 26C... the design of the rig would allow it to point very high, but the undersized centerboard would have the boat making as much way to leeward as moving forward.

"... nobody has a motor on the stern..."

'Engine ready' vs. 'no engine' rules vary a lot by club and venue.

Edited by - ClamBeach on 11/28/2007 19:25:09

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2007 : 20:16:30

Longwind has the green bottom paint. After looking at a lot of the photos I wonder if the swinger looses the pointing advantage when heeling past a certain point. Through the photos I think the fins show an obvious stiffness advantage. And of course nothing conclusive can be decided from a series of photos but at least these are pictures of all three keels sailing at the same marks in the same wind.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2007 : 22:38:36

David - I was there and we all had O/B's on the transoms.
Under most PHRF venues it is necessary to have an O/B "on board" and a means of attaching it to the transom. Some of the J's on our lake, if they race PHRF, have the motor stored below with a 1 gallon gas tank.
Conventional wisdom and my own experience, teaches that the swing will go better to weather (will heel less, tack quicker and exhibit less leeway) than the fixed keel. However, "what you gain on the swings you lose on the roundabouts" (as the old saying goes) and the fixed keel is faster downwind. Hence both versions carry the same rating (as do the swing and fixed keel C22's).

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 09:39:49

Just an observation........ The C25 design rules posted on the Association website state pretty clearly

"1. Boats without an inboard engine must have an operable outboard motor whose combined weight with associated fuel tank must weigh at least 40 pounds. Should this weight limitation not be met, then ballast must be added to meet the above weight requirement. Engine must be mounted and ready to use (1985). No minimum horsepower requirement for outboard motor (1993)."

So, it would seem to me that club and venue should not make any difference. The rule clearly states that the "Engine must be mounted and ready to use."

If association members want to change the rule, then the change should be submitted to a vote of the membership.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 09:43:57

How far into the race is that photo? Is it just after the start or after some miles of racing? If it is the latter, the boats are remarkably close, just like I have observed with our Fleet 7 boats. It all comes down to tactics and who makes the fewest mistakes. C-250s excepted, we all sail away from them - far away.

Even fin SR versus wing TR are very, very close. Wing TR is with a notable advantage in light air, fin SR has an advantage upwind and in heavy air. Gary usually beats me downwind but I attribute that to his skill and tactics, not the boats.

Unless I go up spin.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 10:20:30

Can't get to the photos, however I can see swingers having difficulty pointing. The main issue is the flex at the hinge. The pin itself needs to be shimmed and gasketed (there is a kit at CD) which will provide some of the stiffness that will help the boat point.

Also - there are always a million other factors. Someone above mentioned rig tension - probably one of the biggest issues. Sail trim is another, current, different winds... Crappy helmsman being yet another. It is very tough to make an observation without all the info.

Bill - as for the engine - in 06 and 07 because there was a larger race going on we gave the option of removing the engine and stowing it below based on the PHRF rules of the area. Conceptually this was to allow our boats to be more competitive with the rest of the fleets racing in CRW. This was done under section L1 of our class rules which was voted on by the membership many many years prior(at least 5). I would note that no-one took advantage of this rule and all boats had the motors on the transom.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 11:33:37

I've never seen the issue raised, but it has always been my understanding that our class racing rules only govern boats racing in races sponsored by the class association. I agree with Duane that they don't apply to PHRF racing.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 13:22:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Champipple
 Can't get to the photos,
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
shortcut
http://gallery.mac.com/fhopper#100063

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 13:45:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Frank Hopper
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Champipple
 Can't get to the photos,
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
shortcut
http://gallery.mac.com/fhopper#100063

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I should have said I can't get there from here

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 13:49:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 I've never seen the issue raised, but it has always been my understanding that our class racing rules only govern boats racing in races sponsored by the class association. I agree with Duane that they don't apply to PHRF racing.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is completely based on each individual PHRF orgs rules.

Some apply penalty's for not racing in the Class Configuration as they consider the rating to be based on class racing equipment. Some rate each boat based on its own merit... etc. etc.

In general though you are right. Most PHRF's will not impose class rules if they conflict with PHRF rules.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 20:22:04

Back to the sk/fk issue. I don't race, but when I did we raised the centerboard on down wind legs to reduce wetted surface. It would seem that the same thing would apply to the s/k and
give it an advantage over the fixed keel. Don't know, just asking.

And for the windward debate, I think it is a non issue. Basic physics tells you that with identical hulls and rigs. five feet of keel wins every time with equally skilled and lucky skippers. The question is, is it enough of an advantage to make a real difference. With that said, I'm sure any of you wing, fixed, or swing keeled t/r or s/r racers would leave me far behind.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 21:10:06

Class rules prohibit raising the swing keel. I ask the same question when my swing was new to me, I had had a shoal keel with a centerboard and had sailed a daysailer with a centerboard. People explained that 1500 pounds needs to stay down, imagine having it partway up, broaching and having it crash through the bottom of your boat!

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 21:54:15

OK, Ihave to admit that I am NOT a racer . . . I looked at Frank's excellent page and especially was intrigued at the 2005 regatta because of the wind and chop that the lake had, and to see how much heal 25's can comfortably handle. I was raised on power boats and shifted to sailing via Alberg designs - (read I am not comfortable with "excessive" healing). Regardless of swing/wing/fin I have been impressed at how the 25 handles and Frank's pictures are giving me pause for thought of how much more I can push my boat. The comments here are fantastic as I am learning about the physics as well as the skill and design differences. I only wish it were mid-season and my boat were not on the hard covered for the New England winter so I could try to replicate the great sailing demonstrated by all.

Peter

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 00:42:53

Peter, pay particular attention to the boat called This Side Up, it is a tall rig fin like yours. The Association's Chief Measurer, Derek Crawford is the skipper and he is a very successful racer. The secret to sailing in a lot of wind is to understand that you must flatten your sails so the lateral forces do not overwhelm you. Sailing with a rail in the water is fun and can be done for long periods but only if you are still in control and moving forward, the flattened sails reduce the chord of the sail's foil shape and that reduces the lateral forces allowing the keel to maintain its balancing act against the sails. After all the forces the keel generates do not change with the wind speed like the sails do, hence depowering the sails by flattening them keeps everything balanced. This is a zoomed view of a boat where everyone is very much relaxed and in control and while they are obviously over farther than they want to be they are waiting for the forces to rebalance rather than freaking out.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 07:02:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 Back to the sk/fk issue. I don't race, but when I did we raised the centerboard on down wind legs to reduce wetted surface. It would seem that the same thing would apply to the s/k and
give it an advantage over the fixed keel. Don't know, just asking.

And for the windward debate, I think it is a non issue. Basic physics tells you that with identical hulls and rigs. five feet of keel wins every time with equally skilled and lucky skippers. The question is, is it enough of an advantage to make a real difference. With that said, I'm sure any of you wing, fixed, or swing keeled t/r or s/r racers would leave me far behind.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You used to raise a centerboard - big difference compared to a huge ballasted keel. In races where allowed I've raised the keel downwind and found almost zero benefit. There was some, but when you weighed it with the loss of a crew member at spin takedowns in order to drop the keel for the windward leg it wasn't worth it. And if for some reason you forget to drop it (and we did) you'll look like a 747 landing on a really windy day, ie bigtime crabbing, minimal forward progress.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 07:08:54

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 07:59:16

originally posted by Steve Milby<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Retracting it reduces the boat's draft, and shortens the lever arm, but it doesn't reduce wetted surface.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Of course you're correct Steve. Still, having the Keel retracted would create quite a bit less drag and I'm sure allow for a bit more downwind speed.
different subject; Frank, you're site is GREAT and I love those 05 Nationals photos, nice job!

Edited by - DaveR on 11/30/2007 07:59:58

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 10:43:40

Novices - keep in mind it is actually very hard to get the lee deck under like it is in that photo, especially with weight on the weather rail.

I've raced on big boats where it was the norm for the side decks to be 6 inches under on a tack. This makes for wet feet, slippery decks, and slows down the crew.

Catalina got the freeboard just right on the C25.

Note the traveller is down, mainsheet eased, sails trimmed flat and tight. It is really a thing of beauty, and deserves to be on Frank's "Art of Sailing" page.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 10:48:09

Raising the swing keel while racing actually violates one of the racing rules. You are not allowed to "move ballast" or do anything to affect the boat's stability while.
We had quite a discussion on this in our PHRF Committee a while back - one guy suggested that merely raising the keel was not "moving ballast" as it didn't really change anything except to lessen the wetted surface. We told him that it affected stability, and if he didn't believe that to keep his keel cranked up when he went to weather!
As for speed differential with the keel up, I have no experience with the C25 but on our C22 raising the keel downwind increased speed around 1/2 to 3/4 knot.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 11:13:24

As far as I can tell, the only thing that would make a speed difference between the keel up and keel down is the amount of the keel's leading edge that is exposed. Less leading edge is exposed when the keel is up, and that undoubtedly reduces drag somewhat, but through the years, I participated with other guys on their boats in trying to measure a speed difference while cranking the keel up and down, and the difference was so slight that we were unable to measure it with a knotmeter. Also, with a fin keel C25 sailing alongside, cranking the keel up didn't noticeably change the swinger's speed vis-a-vis the fin. I know our tests weren't "scientific," but they were the best we could do with the instruments we had at the time.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 11/30/2007 11:16:48

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 12:39:02

Re: Raising the C-22 keel while racing is also a violation of the class rules. The only exception is an emergency situation where the safety of the crew requires doing so.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2007 : 20:02:39

Interesting things to note from the last photo...

1) Really neat and innovative way to mount the compass and what appear to be racing course cards.
2) Jib cross sheeted to crew on the high side, tailed by hand. (no winch handle = strong crewmember)
3) Traveller eased to leeward.
4) Rudder is pretty straight, little bit of helm angle. (just a moment in time tho)
5) Lots of backstay tension.

I'd try to get that big guy by the mast base out to the rail! :>)

Edited by - on

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