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Teak and Holly Floor – Anyone else have issues?

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Mike Chrisman
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/02/2007 : 17:39:45

Sorry for the long post, but I am frustrated!

One weekend in July, I noticed that some rainwater get into the cabin mysteriously over the prior weeks. It was the only low point to an otherwise excellent first season with the boat. I believe it happened only once. Part of the problem may have been that the canvas companionway cover was not on because the one that came with the boat did not fit. Still, a brand new boat should not leak. Given that my 250 sits slightly high in the bow, the water settled into the seam between the wood floor and the fiberglass rising up to form the aft berth and galley.

Water clearly was under the wood floor because when I would step on it, water gushed up from around the edges. I removed two of the screws and they had mushy gunk along the groves. I cleaned up the water. I believed then and I believe now that the wood under the Formica-type surface was damaged in this area. The floor now has some bounce and a slight unevenness in this area. Prior to the water the floor was flat and even. In retrospect I wonder why Catalina would ship these boats without some sort of a barrier (caulk?) around the edge.

My dealer has his J-24 up the dock from me. So, the weekend I discovered the water I mentioned the issue with the floor. He indicated that I should bring the boat by the shop after I haul out for the Fall. I took him at his word, thinking that he and Catalina would make things right.

I took my boat over to have it fixed last weekend with the expectation that the dealer would at least remove the floor and inspect for damage. No luck. He will not remove the floor. I got some sympathy, but he doesn’t feel that there is any damage. I was told that the unevenness I see in the floor is normal. Of course I can not prove my point without removing the floor.

I asked about appealing to Catalina. My dealer’s logic is this: Frank Butler would want pictures of the damage. My dealer would send pictures of the floor as it is currently installed. Any pictures my dealer would take would not show any damage below the Formica-type surface. Frank would see a normal floor installation and wonder why he was being asked about this.

There was a secondary issue concerning the access panel to the bilge/keel bolts. The panel will slip out of its spot if you step on it sometimes. The dealer offered to screw this down, but why fix this on a floor that I believe should be replaced?

I guess I should have interrupted my dealers race plans that July afternoon and demanded he do something then. I guess I should have run back home to get the camera prior to cleaning up the mess. This was a brand new boat this year and this was an expensive option.

One of the reasons I bought a Catalina was to have a local dealer. I think he is falling down on the job in terms of being an advocate for the customer.

So my dealer and I are at an impasse. I was told that a letter to Frank was my next course of action. Has anyone else dealt with Catalina on a similar situation? Was your situation resolved to your satisfaction or was it an exercise in frustration?

Mike Chrisman
Catalina 250 WK (Sail # 936)
Escape
Brookville Lake IN

Edited by - Mike Chrisman on 12/02/2007 17:42:24

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2007 : 06:43:49

Mike, we have had to correspond (with the dealers blessing/suggestion) with Catalina on our (now 2 year old) C250 SK. In both cases, they were very helpful, and Frank directly intervened and did nothing but extend the belief that the manufacturer is a major factor when choosing a boat. We were and are very pleased with their responses. I would stongly suggest giving them a call and expect a call back.

We don't have that cover in the SK model, but I totally agree with your statement, in fact I would have expected it to be made of a starboard material as it is the obvious deep point of the boats cabin.

Do you keep the boat in the water? I ask because on the SK model, we have to be careful to ensure the level of the boat to avoid rain ingress, nose down = bad (water in the cabin), tail up = bad (water in the v-berth.) Of course, in both cases it is dependant upon not having covers on.

FYI, I keep a 6" fender under the cabin top canvas, avoids the sag and creates a tent shape.

Paul

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2007 : 08:41:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mike Chrisman
 Sorry for the long post, but I am frustrated!

One weekend in July, I noticed that some rainwater get into the cabin mysteriously over the prior weeks. It was the only low point to an otherwise excellent first season with the boat. I believe it happened only once. Part of the problem may have been that the canvas companionway cover was not on because the one that came with the boat did not fit. Still, a brand new boat should not leak. Given that my 250 sits slightly high in the bow, the water settled into the seam between the wood floor and the fiberglass rising up to form the aft berth and galley.

Water clearly was under the wood floor because when I would step on it, water gushed up from around the edges. I removed two of the screws and they had mushy gunk along the groves. I cleaned up the water. I believed then and I believe now that the wood under the Formica-type surface was damaged in this area. The floor now has some bounce and a slight unevenness in this area. Prior to the water the floor was flat and even. In retrospect I wonder why Catalina would ship these boats without some sort of a barrier (caulk?) around the edge.

I took my boat over to have it fixed last weekend with the expectation that the dealer would at least remove the floor and inspect for damage. No luck. He will not remove the floor. I got some sympathy, but he doesn’t feel that there is any damage. I was told that the unevenness I see in the floor is normal. Of course I can not prove my point without removing the floor.

I asked about appealing to Catalina. My dealer’s logic is this: Frank Butler would want pictures of the damage.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Mike, I am curious about your experience with boats. All boats leak, there is nothing hermetic about hand built fiberglass boats. I am also curious about the canvas that did not fit, self reliance is very important to owning a boat, unless the canvas was for a different size boat, which is possible, it probably just needed some effort or some additional snaps installed to fit. Snaps are at the hardware store. It sounds like your failure to keep the boat dry caused your problem with the teak and holly floor, were I the dealer or Mr. Butler I would chalk it up to neglect on your part. I do think it is a shame that it happened and I empathize with your frustration but we as owners owe a duty to take care of our boats to the best of our ability. Inspecting a bilge or floor to make sure it is dry is our obligation. I also do not understand why you can't unscrew the floor yourself if you want pictures. If you have not removed the floor to help it dry then once again you are not doing your part.
Sorry Mike but I do not see where the dealer or the manufacturer owe you anything unless you can find a manufacturing flaw that allowed water in where it would not be expected to come in. Hopefully there will be a discussion that helps you determine whether you are culpable or a victim.
Good luck, I hope it turns out well for you.

Edited by - on

moserd
Navigator

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USA
149 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2007 : 11:58:19

Mike,

I have also had problems with water leaking into the boat via the 'hatch'. I do not have the teak option but I was getting water on the aft bunk. I solved my problem with a square throwable cushion under the canvas in a similar fashion to the fender. This has solved my water problem.

As far as Catalina support; I had some problems with my rudder and was advised by my dealer to contact Frank. To my surprise he called my home number and discussed the problem with my wife (I was out of town) I have been VERY satisfied with the level of support from Catalina (Frank especially) so I would advise contacting him through the Catalina Web site.

I would agree with Frank though; you might want to consider removing a small section of the floor and make some digital pictures. This is how I communicated my problems earlier and this seems to work well.

PS (I would think / hope that the teak floor could handle a pretty good dunking and come out all right; else it might not be a good installation eh?

Good luck, I hope you enjoy your boat as much as I do mine

Don

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2007 : 18:37:17

Mike

You need the canvas cover. The 250 "stock" tilts to the rear and water runs backward along the Top hatch tracks and then finds it's way "drip by drip" into the cabin. If you add bow weight as many have, the "drip drip" will hit the rear of your table top!

The sunbrella canvas from catalina should cover the entire top hatch and run over the deck and cover your companionway hatch. Did your invoice say you got a catalina canvas package? The cover works extremely well and is absolutely necessary in keeping the water out.

I called catalina on another matter (blisters on the transom) and was told by the secretary that the person you need to talk to is in a meeting. Thinking I was getting the run around, I waited and a few hours later, Frank Butler called me. He IS the one who troubleshoots ALL the problems with his boats. I was impressed with his decision to allow me to fix it with all the materials he sent me, epoxy, white cat. gel coat and full instructions. He said he would be happy to have one of his dealers do the work, but it would have taken several weeks and boating season was starting - I did it myself with his hand written instructions.

My thinking is if the cover given you by Catalina was made incorrectly, and you did not know that it was necessary to stop the drips, you do have a bit of an issue with them if the floor is damaged. I will say that the first thing Frank will say is take some pictures. If you can get a light source real close to the floor it may show the unevenness in the wood. If it is not real bad and you can get it dried up and avoid more water getting in, I would live with it. Boats get old and gelcoat fades. They still sail pretty well.

Get the proper canvas. By the way, when your boats on the trailer, it tilts forward and you still need the canvas to stop water hitting your table.

I hope this helps.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2007 : 19:17:48

I agree. Call Catalina and give them a chance. I have been impressed by their customer service.

I think I need one of those hatch covers. Is Catalina the source?

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2007 : 20:12:15

Catalina is the source for the sunbrella cover. Also have winch covers and boom sail cover.

Edited by - on

Mike Chrisman
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2007 : 21:02:59

Thank you to all for your input. I keep my boat at a slip all summer. I will put something under the canvas next season to prevent the water from pooling there. The boat came with the canvas package, however the snaps were not installed completely on the boat when I took delivery. My dealer was to fix it at the lake and it took way longer than it should have. I still think that given the propensity for the boat to leak, the floor should be sealed around the edges from the factory. It is on my Spring project list.

For what it's worth I owned an O'Day 240 for six seasons. Never had a canvas cover over the companion way. The only water I would see was when I opened up the boat in the rain. I do not recall this being a big issue with the boats we had when I was a kid. (And I learned a lot from my dad, who was particular about how he kept his boats. No canvas covers either.) The dealership had a 250 on their lot for nearly a year without the canvas cover, but it didn't have the teak and holly floor. They must have kept towels handy.

I guess I was upset that the dealer did not make more of an effort from the beginning. I followed his advice, after all. My thinking is this: my Toyota dealer did not ask me to tear into my car's electrical system when I had an issue. I will follow up with Mr. Butler. I have heard good things about him.

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2007 : 21:41:07

I agree with you - the 250 should never have needed the canvas cover to keep out the rain. I think it just became a "fix" after the molds were finalized. The cover without the pillow has worked just fine for me. Never had any water inside unless I forgot to put on the cover.

The 250 still is a remarkable boat. I'm keepin it a while.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2007 : 22:20:44

I guess I don't understand which cover you're referring to? Our boat has never leaked (except poorly PO installed 3rd party deck hardware, but that's hardly Catalina's fault). Are you talking about the hatch cover for when the hatch is up? Or a trapezoidal cover for just the hatch? We've never used either and only own the former. The only time water's gotten into the boat through a Catalina made hole was because we had it tilted backwards a bit too far on the trailer and it pooled at the forward hatch seal. Does anyone have a picture?

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2007 : 06:27:53

The cover I'm talking about is a canvas cover running from in front of the "lift top" hatch (the large one not the bow hatch) running rearward and over the trapzoidal whiteboard companionway cover. It snaps down.

I have a 2003 and I'm wondering if something might have changed in that top system. I don't have teak and holly on the floor, but I would get water at the foot of the steps in small quantities when it would rain. Started using the canvas cover and all was well.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2007 : 09:06:25

It seems to me that, if the boat came with a cover that should have kept water out of the boat, and if it couldn't be used because all the snaps weren't on the cover, then it was the dealer's fault for not installing the snaps.

I don't believe it was your fault in any respect. While it's more or less true that every boat leaks, that shouldn't be true of a new boat. You had every right to expect that your brand new boat would not have any significant leaks. If the new canvas cover, that you paid for, had been properly installed, either by the manufacturer or by the dealer, you would probably have used it, and the boat would probably not have leaked and been damaged.

I have no doubt Frank Butler will take care of it to your reasonable satisfaction.

Edited by - on

johnsonp
Admiral

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USA
606 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2007 : 15:49:31

A cover picture

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7cc25b3127cceb1ab120171b600000026108BctGjdqxcU

paulj

Edited by - on

jlannutti
Navigator

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USA
102 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2007 : 17:11:18

I have a '98 WB # 360. When I purchased the boat that canvas cover was mildewed on the sutface due to water pooling in it and being allowed to just sit there until it evaporated. Because of that I don't use the cover but have never had a problem with leaks. I will buy a new one at some point but as of yet some other piece of equipment always seemed to move ahead of the cover on my list. I have the teak and holly sole and have always thought that water could easily get under it. If you think that caulking the edges will stop that you are mistaken as water finds its way through every nook and cranny and will not be stopped. Caulk would just lenghten the time it woyld take to dry out.

Just my 2 cents worth!

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
855 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2007 : 17:16:29

Mike,

I sent you an e-mail through the forum regarding my customer service experience.
When I called Catalina they told me to contact the dealer.
When I contacted Catalina through their website I got an e-mail the same day and I e-mailed some pictures.
I dealt with Kent through e-mail and was happy with the response.
Frank Butler sent a letter to me and my dealer stating the issue with me 3rd generation rudder was covered under warrenty.

On another note, I have the "Canvas Package" and it is the same cover from PaulJ "johnsonp".
It covers the companionway and sliding hatch.
It does not cover the hinged section of the hatch so some rain still gets into the hatch area, but drains to the cockpit.
My 2004WB doesn't leak around the companionway/hatch area, even without the cover.
I did have a leak in the coaming pockets, so when I hosed the cockpit, I had water on the aft berth cushions.

Russ #793

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2007 : 18:51:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Russ.Johnson
 

On another note, I have the "Canvas Package" and it is the same cover from PaulJ "johnsonp".
It covers the companionway and sliding hatch.
It does not cover the hinged section of the hatch so some rain still gets into the hatch area, but drains to the cockpit.

Russ #793
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Interesting, mine covers the entire top almost to the mast. ?????

Edited by - on

jlannutti
Navigator

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USA
102 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2007 : 07:01:51

This whole topic has me thinking about covers so perhaps this is the time to think about springing for some "leak insurance".
As I said I have a badly mildewed cover that addresses the front (plexiglas) portion but not the longer one that covers the front pop-up portion of the hatch cover. Does Catalina Direct or anyone else sell the covers or do I need to get them custom made? It appears that they utilize the same snaps as the pop-up which I do have but rarely use...am I right about that?

Thanks for any light you can shed on this issue.

Joe Lannutti

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
Captain

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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2007 : 19:05:01

Hey Mike next May 1 why don't you walk down the dock to H-24 and you can have a look at my teak (?) floor. I didn't get to meet you this year but I did look at your boat always neat to see what they have changed. The darn floor is always wet and it amazes me that I have never found any problems with it. The hatch leaks like a sieve without the sunbrella cover. I also have placed a couple of beads of silicon in a location that seems to channel the water in the direction it is supposed to travel. I still have a water problem that is not hatch related. I am still trying to find that/those leaks. Favorite candidates at this point are the head port-light or the water-ballast tanks. You and I also have the same dealer and all I have to add is talk to Frank Butler, Gerry Douglas or Kent at Catalina. They will tell the dealer what to do and they will listen trust me. Call me if you want to talk about it before next spring,

Edited by - on

ABYON
Deckhand

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Canada
11 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2007 : 07:44:38

My teak and holly sole still looks great after 5 seasons and being wet more times than I care to remember. I've removed it on a couple of occasions and have found no damage or problems with mold. I've used a shop vac on occasion to get at the water under the sole. By running the corner attachment on the edges you can quickly get rid of the residual squishiness. Otherwise, with ample ventilation I find the floor dries well.

Things should get better though as I've found the source of my leak. Rainwater gets into the port coaming pocket then finds its way into the battery compartment aft. It pools there until there is enough to get over the lip to which the bulkhead is attached. From there it trickles down the starboard side (under the cushions) toward the cooler compartment under the galley area and then drips over the edge under the teak and holly sole. I discovered this about a year ago but it seemed so convoluted that it took another season of observation to definitely convince me. Since I started covering the pockets the sole has been dry. Problem is I don't always remember. I'm now considering glassing them in. The little bit of convenience they add is not worth the hassle of mopping up. Ray, you may want to check out this possible source for your leak. I note we both have water-ballasted boats with hull numbers in the 600s.

Edited by - on

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