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Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Optimum wind

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5371 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/30/2007 : 12:06:16

This is my first year sailing the Catalina (std rig, keel) and I love it. My last boat was a 16 ft centerboard Sunbird daysailor, which had its moments.

In the Cat, I've reached close hauled on LI Sound in NW-erlies @ 25 with 35kt gusts (white knuckled luffing and easing all day long - reefed and unfurled the jib 1/3-way), in the CT summer staple: 15kt SW-erlies, and in constant 20 kt easterlies when things get interesting.

My slip mates with 45 and 50 footers tell me sailing is best when it hits 30kts. I'd have the rail in the water on a day like that.

But I've wondered what wind speed the Cat 25 was designed for? Or, rather, what range of winds she's made for?

When should you start depowering?

I know there are no hard and fast rules, but what are the best conditions for the boat? Assume standard rig with a 110 jib.

I appreciate it.

- Bruce

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2007 : 12:54:59

Hi Bruce... While you're waiting, you could "Search" the C-25 forum for "reef" and/or "wind" and end up with weeks worth of reading... To narrow it down a little and get some of the best advice out there, in the Member field, put JimB517. He also sails a SR/FK C-25, out of San Diego's Mission Bay, and has dealt with a huge variety of conditions. But caution: he's an animal on his boat!

Some of his antics shouldn't be tried by amateurs!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/30/2007 12:56:09

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2007 : 13:10:35

And by the way, I'll chime in with the opinion that the limiting factor with me (on your very boat) was more sea conditions than wind. Strong offshore breezes (NW - N) made for the best performance, even though they're almost always gustier. I often sailed on the 130 alone in those conditions--sometimes above hull speed on a reach. NE and E winds in western CT (often pre-storm conditions) build short-period seas from Orient Point on down, and can toss you around. If the tide is opposite the wind, things get even crazier. Rounding up is more likely in big chop as the rudder loses its purchase. So for your 45-50' brethren, 30+ onshore might be right for their boats, but probably not for yours.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/30/2007 13:18:20

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2007 : 14:47:54

Hi Bruce, welcome aboard. You can't find better advice for sailing in your area than that offered by Dave Bristle. Sailed a C-25 Std. fin for several years in the sound.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT, # 3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

Edited by - on

ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2007 : 15:00:10

I think about reefing at 15 kts.
But that's just me....other maybe 20kts.
You know what they say, if you think it's time to reef, then it is!
With the 110 jib and a reefed main, I think you'll like how the boat settles down and goes.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2007 : 15:19:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tinob
 ...Dave Bristle. Sailed a C-25 Std. fin for several years in the sound.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The very same boat--Bruce is the second owner of Passage after me.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5371 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2007 : 17:29:18

Dave is right - same boat, and as always he's provided me with excellent advice, especially about the rough chop and loss of rudder control.

My rule about reefing is do it before you go out. Simple rules:
> If the wind is blowing pretty constant, then 15 is the max before I'll reef.
> If, however, it's 10kts but gusty, then I'll reef the main at once.
I really hate surprises, so I check the NOAA Weather Service (www.weather.gov) winds forecast.

With the jib furler, you can adjust it in real time, however you have to take care not to increase weather helm too much.

That leads to another question: is it possible to add a 2nd reef in the Main? Mine has only a single reef point.

- Bruce

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2007 : 00:14:02

Hey Voyager! Forget wind speed. Reef or change down jibs when you are consistently heeled over past about 35 degrees. I beleive 20 degrees of heel is optimal.

Rough guidelines ; 0 - 10 knots of wind 155 jib full main

10 - 15 knots 155 jib full main, use flattening controls (tighten halyards, move jib blocks back, set flattening reef (as required to keep boat on her feet). As you already know, ease traveller or dump main in gusts.

15 - 20 time to go to the 135% jib unless you are racing and have lots of crew on the weather rail.

above 20 110% jib

I throw in the first reef when the boat starts to round up in the gusts. You won't round up until she heels past 45 degrees.

Yes, your sail can have 2 reef points - mine has a flattening reef (about 6 inches), first reef and second.

30 knots I'd have my 110% up and 2nd reef in the main and be thinking about going to the 60% jib. Also we would have about 7 foot seas to go with that. White knuckled and wet. Not fun for me unless I am close to the harbor.

But former Commodore Frank Hopper carries a 155 and full main in these winds (on a very windy lake). So it can be done with a crew on the weather rail and experience. Big waves make it different. The balanced rudder makes a big difference in these conditions.

You should not be at sea in winds 40 and above on a C25. God help you if you are caught out in that. I'd go under double reefed main and no jib or all sails down and run off downwind.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2007 : 07:05:41

You can't draw a line at 20 or 30 or 40 knots, and say that it's ok to sail the C25 in less winds. The limiting factor is the totality of the conditions. I've sailed in 25 knot winds on tiny Brookville Lake in the fall, when all the power boats were gone, and the water was smooth, and sailing was a piece of cake, and, in fact, delightful sailing. On the other hand, I've been in 25 knot winds on the Chesapeake Bay and Lake Erie that were very rough. The things that matter are the size of the body of water and length of the fetch. A long fetch permits bigger waves. Along that same line, if you're cruising the coast, is the wind direction from the sea or from the shore? If it's from the sea, the waves will be much bigger than if the wind is from the shore. Also, strong wind and gusts creates bigger waves and confused seas. Shallow or shoaling water creates bigger, choppier waves. The wakes of other boats can be troublesome for small boats. Your intended direction is important. Beating to windward is hard going, but sailing downwind in 25 knots can be joyous. How do the wind speed and direction affect your ability to get in and out of your marina? Does the entrance become impassable in certain conditions? If so, you might have to find shelter elsewhere. When a 40 footer beats to windward, and waves break on it's bow, the 40 footer's greater length and windage keeps the spray out of the cockpit much longer than the shorter, lower C25. In any case, 30 or 40 knots is a lot of wind by anyone's standards, and if you aren't very skilled and if the boat isn't very well equipped for those conditions, you should not be out there.

Depending on your sailing venue, small craft warnings are given when the sustained winds or frequent gusts range between 20 and 33 knots, and, while a good sailor in a good boat can usually cope with those conditions, it all depends on the totality of conditions, and you can't be sure the conditions won't become worse than predicted.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2007 : 12:07:50

You'll find that the roller furler causes the shape of the genny to deteriorate as it gets smaller. The genny is the primary driving sail on the C-25 (as on most masthead rigs)--the main mostly provides balance and much of its drive is derived from the air coming off the genny (as per Bernoulli). Also, the genny gives you more sail down lower than the main, for more drive and less heeling force in heavy air. And when you reef the genny, you move its center of effort forward, contributing to lee helm (not a good thing).

So I've found that the C-25 likes a reefed or even doused main before reduction of the 130 genny. Passage sailed with an almost neutral helm for me under full genny alone. With the cars moved back, the bottom of the sail flattens and the top twists off, reducing heel further. A double-reefed main would have balanced her better, but not having the second reef point, I generally would douse the main before reducing the genny. She loves that front-wheel drive! (Under main alone, she's a sick puppy!) In this respect, she's very different from your Sunbird, as she was from my Daysailer. (Edit: The C-250 is also different--with the mast further forward and therefore a smaller foretriangle, she might be somewhat happier under main alone.)

I agree with Jim on the 20 degrees of heel--past that you might feel like you're going faster, but in a race you'll probably find you have more leeway due to the reduced effectiveness of the keel, so your VMG to the windward mark might be reduced substantially. Standing on the side of the leeward seat can be fun, but...

And if you have crew aboard, be sensitive to how they feel about it. The person at the helm has a much different feeling than the one not in control.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/31/2007 12:22:07

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2007 : 12:27:34

Hmmm... New signature... "Marine Electrical Engineer" huh? This sounds like it has possibilities...

Tell us more!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/31/2007 12:28:18

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2007 : 12:27:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 So I've found that the C-25 likes a reefed or even doused main before reduction of the 130 genny. Passage sailed with an almost neutral helm for me under full genny alone. With the cars moved back, the bottom of the sail flattens and the top twists off, reducing heel further. A double-reefed main would have balanced her better, but not having the second reef point, I generally would douse the main before reducing the genny. She loves that front-wheel drive! (Under main alone, she's a sick puppy!)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I couldn't agree more. When conditions start going south, instead of reefing, I bag the main and sail on with just the full 135.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2007 : 12:32:32

Then there's what I called my quadruple reef: The mainsail cover, which sometimes never came off.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5371 Posts

Response Posted - 01/01/2008 : 21:04:47

Whoa ! This could be a hot topic. Lots to comment on. I'll respond to Q's roughly in order.

On the 35 kt gusts, I listened to the weather report that very morning and NOAA expected 15-20 winds with 25kt gusts. Challenging conditions, but not overly - or so I thought. Things changed while we were out there.

Good news, they were North-north easterlies right off the south shore of CT (north shore of LI Sound), and we stayed no more than a mile or so offshore the whole way, so it was only wind and not sea state we had to deal with. We wouldn't have been out if the opposite were true.

Heel wasn't the problem - no more than 20 MAX, as we were reefed and were able to luff up in puffs. It was just very slo-o-o-ow, and on a beat - so we finally decided to douse the sails and motor in.

Also, helm has not been a problem (weather or lee) as sail trim is a big deal with me. Thankfully, I have not run into really bad conditions except that one time.

BTW: the Sunbird trained me well for gusty conditions. She was limited to 20-25kt puffs - MAX. I never unintentionally capsized her.

My berth at the Marina is on the TEE END in the Housatonic River. Not a lot of chop or swells on the river. Just lucked out on the slip, so I can usually sail in on a reach. Occasionally, if the wind is not cooperating, I can motor in opposing the often 2.5kt current.

I'm an electrical engineer (Georgia Tech), and a member of the US Power Squadron in Milford CT. We offered the Marine Electronics courses (101, 102 & 103) last winter and I "was volunteered" to teach it. We started with galvanic action & anodes and ended with chartplotters connected to radar, knotmeters and depth finders. So, I tentatively re-classified myself as a Marine EE, at least an amateur one.

One of my students was having his 50 footer redone at the time, so we talked alot about batteries, generators, power consumption, AC and refrigeration, calculated loads and re-charging duty cycles. We also talked about lightning protection & grounding, as it is a live aboard.

The USPS course materials provided only a general overview of the topics and so the student provided specific examples of his equipment. But I don't do installations except on my own boat, so specific info on model #'s are mainly beyond my knowledge.

I also am a firm believer in KISS personally, so I replaced the depth sounder, I removed the knotmeter, I have a handheld GPS, a handheld VHF (and kept the old VHF) and installed an FM radio/CD player with an XM radio.

I can be somewhat useful on electrical and electronics questions and issues, but I have to claim ignorance on specific brands and models unless I use the gear.

I'm hoping to learn a lot more about the Catalina 25 in the coming year, both sailing her, and asking questions & researching topics on the forum.

Regards,
Bruce Ross - Voyager

Cat 25 - Passage

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