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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

WK or WB? Tiller or Wheel?

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MartinJW
Navigator

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USA
241 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/02/2008 : 23:09:23

My wife and I have put down a deposit on a new C-250 with wing keel and wheel steering. We decided on this configuration after looking at several C-250s last summer. (I've been sailing off and on for 10 or 20 years, but I'm certainly no expert.)

Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions, ridicule regarding these choices?

THANKS!

Martin
Lake Tahoe (more or less)

C25/250 Int'l Ass'n Member
2008 C-250 WK #973
"Bluebell"
Lake Tahoe, CA/NV

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2008 : 23:14:55

Why would you want wheel steering on a 25 ft. boat? It's a big piece of equipment that is going to get in the way a lot!

Edited by - on

MartinJW
Navigator

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USA
241 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2008 : 23:23:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 Why would you want wheel steering on a 25 ft. boat? It's a big piece of equipment that is going to get in the way a lot!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Alright, alright! I DID say that I could take the ridicule, didn't I?

The Catalina dealer in Santa Rosa, CA (the #1 C-250 seller in the U.S., I think) convinced us that the wheel was the way to go. Primarily, it actually FREES UP room in the cockpit relative to a tiller situation. I was surprised, too, but my wife and I sat in each configuration, and the wheel made much more sense. The dealer (John at Wind Toys in Santa Rosa, CA) told us - if I'm remembering correctly - that the vast majority of the C-250s he sells have wheels instead of tillers.

Do you still think we're nuts, David?

Edited by - on

Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2008 : 23:31:24

Congrats on the future boat. I can't think of a more beautiful place to sail it...!

You'll find proponents here of both the wheel and the tiller. I've got a wheel and love it. Among other things, the pedestal guard gives you a place to mount your instruments, and provides a handhold centrally mounted in the cockpit. It could be argued that it takes up less space in the cockpit under sail. When moored, it just stow the wheel below.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2008 : 23:41:00

I have a tiller. I think that all sailboats should have tillers. OK, not all, but certainly all in this size range. I think the wheel might give that "big boat feel" but, at the expense of cockpit space. There has also been some discussion on this forum regarding the responsiveness of the tiller vs. wheel.

I'm not sure how it could be less of a space hog than a tiller. Admittedly, the helmsman will likely be behind the wheel rather than on the side but, that pedestal takes a lot of space. When at anchor or in your slip, simply lift the tiller out of the way.

Congratulations on your new boat. I'm with Al, I'd love to be sailing on Lake Tahoe.

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
855 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2008 : 23:56:59

Martin,

I have a C250 water-ballast with wheel steering.
It's a personal choice for tiller or wheel, there is no real advantage of one over the other.

Things I found with my wheel steering.
Good Points:
Motoring - You are closer to the outboard because you sit on the fuel locker.
Passengers - You can fit an extra person in the cockpit.
Tacking - You don't switch sides during a tack, so your passengers don't get in your way.
Standing - I like to stand during docking and when sailing in traffic.
I find it's easier to stand with a wheel than with a tiller.

Bad Points:
Mobility - You're behind the wheel and have less ability to move around.
Solo Sailing - You're not going to be able to tend the jib sheets with wheel steering (but tiller would require changing the stock rigging too).
Boat Balance - Because you sit on the fuel locker, the weight is shifted aft.
Turning and Motoring - This takes practice (Wheel to Port, Outboard to Starboard) (Wheel to Starboard, Outboard to Port).
Rudder Sensitivity - The wheel doesn't feel the water as well as a tiller.

None of these points are deal breakers, I have sailed both tiller and wheel.
Russ C250WB #793

Edited by - on

MartinJW
Navigator

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USA
241 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2008 : 00:02:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 I have a tiller. I think that all sailboats should have tillers. OK, not all, but certainly all in this size range. I think the wheel might give that "big boat feel" but, at the expense of cockpit space. There has also been some discussion on this forum regarding the responsiveness of the tiller vs. wheel.

I'm not sure how it could be less of a space hog than a tiller. Admittedly, the helmsman will likely be behind the wheel rather than on the side but, that pedestal takes a lot of space. When at anchor or in your slip, simply lift the tiller out of the way.

Congratulations on your new boat. I'm with Al, I'd love to be sailing on Lake Tahoe.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I completely understand your point of view, John. I've never owned a boat with a wheel before, and I think that I'd prefer the "feel" of the tiller in a boat this small.

However, without going into great detail, the wheel actually allows greater seating capacity in the cockpit, relative to a tiller. The Catalina dealer in Santa Rosa (CA) argued this, and then we actually sat in a C-250 with a wheel and another with a tiller. For ferrying guests about in the cockpit, I'm convinced that the wheel is the better choice.

Well, okay, I'll go into greater detail...

The tiller effectively "takes up" the two aft-most seating positions (port and starboard) in the cockpit: the windward seat occupied by the captain and the leeward seat (since no one can or should sit in the space occupied by the "swing" of the tiller).

Additionally, a wheel allows another person to sit against the transom, near the fulcrum of the rudder. The space is not available when a tiller is in this position.

So, by my math, a wheel allows TWO more people to sit in the cockpit while sailing as compared to a tiller configuration.

I think that the wheel COULD be obtrusive when anchored, but the wheel can easily be removed and stored belowdecks when not underway. In this case, it's no different than simply lifting the tiller up and out of the way.

Okay, I'm sure I've convinced you, and you'll be contacting your local boatyard tomorrow to make this conversion to your boat. Or perhaps not.

Anyway, I appreciate your input.

Best wishes for a wonderful new year,
Martin

Edited by - on

MartinJW
Navigator

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USA
241 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2008 : 00:03:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Russ.Johnson
 Martin,

I have a C250 water-ballast with wheel steering.
It's a personal choice for tiller or wheel, there is no real advantage of one over the other.

Things I found with my wheel steering.
Good Points:
Motoring - You are closer to the outboard because you sit on the fuel locker.
Passengers - You can fit an extra person in the cockpit.
Tacking - You don't switch sides during a tack, so your passengers don't get in your way.
Standing - I like to stand during docking and when sailing in traffic.
I find it's easier to stand with a wheel than with a tiller.

Bad Points:
Mobility - You're behind the wheel and have less ability to move around.
Solo Sailing - You're not going to be able to tend the jib sheets with wheel steering (but tiller would require changing the stock rigging too).
Boat Balance - Because you sit on the fuel locker, the weight is shifted aft.
Turning and Motoring - This takes practice (Wheel to Port, Outboard to Starboard) (Wheel to Starboard, Outboard to Port).
Rudder Sensitivity - The wheel doesn't feel the water as well as a tiller.

None of these points are deal breakers, I have sailed both tiller and wheel.
Russ C250WB #793
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks, Russ. Your points are all well taken, and I especially appreciate your analysis: Rudder v. Wheel.

Happy new year,
Martin

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
855 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2008 : 00:03:36

Martin,

I also bought my C250 at Wind Toys.
You can send me an e-mail if you have any other questions.

Russ C250WB #793

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2008 : 00:24:06

Martin,

I own a 1999 WB with Tiller. If I was to do it again, I would go for a WK (headroom) with wheel. I'm also in the camp that a wheel frees up more space + you can set it up to remove the wheel when not in use with a quick disconnect or a wheel that folds up on the sides. Another advantage to the pedestal is to mount a folding table forward of the pedestal with glass holders. With the pedestal guard you can easily mount a GPS and/or other navigational aids. The downside to the wheel as I see it is a loss in feeling and probable loosness in the wheel.

You can also hard link the rudder to the motor ([url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15649&SearchTerms=DIY,hard,link"]see our mod[/url]) for this I greatly suggest to purchase the 2 lever version for the motor throttle and gear remote controls. For the hard link, read on since the guys here have improved on the idea with quick disconnects and bushings ([url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16477&SearchTerms=hard,link"]see hard link mod V4[/url])

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 01/03/2008 00:33:45

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2008 : 06:44:24

I have heard that the wheel causes issues with some backstays; some because Catalina seems to reconfigure the backstay often. Several years ago I mocked wheels on a 250 because they are patently absurd on other 25 footers, including the Catalina 25. I am now of the camp that the 250 cockpit benefits from the wheel. It does scream dock boat/RV but hey if you were hard core you would not be buying a Catalina 250 so go with the wheel and enjoy.

Edited by - on

johnsonp
Admiral

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USA
606 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2008 : 06:53:21

Martin
John at Wind Toys in Santa Rosa, CA was a good choice for a C250 dealer.

Wheel or tiller is a personel choice that's why they give you a choice.

I'm a tiller person.

paulj

Edited by - on

zebra50
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2008 : 09:48:41

Martin
I have a 98 250 WB and started out with a tiller for the first 2 years. I switched to the wheel and have not regretted it a bit. Aside from the extra space in the cockpit, it makes it a lot easier for a non sailor to take the helm if needed while I tend to other functions either forward or in the galley. The pedestal makes mounting items such as the compass, cockpit table, and other instruments much easier. We love it.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2008 : 10:44:16

Martin... Nobody's responded to the WK parameter in your question... That's because, for your situation, it's a no-brainer.

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2008 : 11:28:28

I have the boat you are considering andd it is terrific. I like the wheel steering because it takes up less room and a pedestal gives you a mounting place for all sorts of things including a folding cockpit table, cup holders and instruments. With a tiller you end up putting the instruments further away on the bulkhead. I like my chartplotter right in front of me at the wheel. We bought a wheel mount that attached to any rail. When at anchor we simply remove the wheel and hang it on the mount out of the way. That makes access to the swim ladder (and dink) easier. I also have a quick disconnect on the port aft stay so tht can be removed as well to improve access.

Most of all I like the wheel because it makes me feel like a pirate. Have you ever seen Johnny Depp at a tiller??

Edited by - on

mhartong
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2008 : 12:32:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Russ.Johnson
 
Solo Sailing - You're not going to be able to tend the jib sheets with wheel steering .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

????????

I generally solo, and I haven't had any problems tending the jib sheets. Even without an autopilot I have found that if you have the boat balanced, you can set the rudder and lock it into place (spin the locking nut on the wheel tight), and then move forward to work the sheets. The autopilot makes it even easier.

Since the splt backstay has been replaced with a single stay to port, it has eliminated the issue of having to worry if you are going to garotte oneself when trying to move forward. (of course the position of the single port backstay introduces an another set of problems, but those don't count for the purposes of this discussion - just remember to go foward to starboard

)

The autopilot for a wheel is just "slightly"

more expensive than an autopilot for a tiller. We just won't talk about that one either.

Mark

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2008 : 13:35:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Martin... Nobody's responded to the WK parameter in your question... That's because, for your situation, it's a no-brainer.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Meaning, of course, that the WK will give you more headroom and have fewer moving parts to maintain. Since you're not going to be a trailer-sailer in the truest sense, put the lead under your boat. The advanage of the water ballast is in trailering and skinny water sailing (with the centerboard up). I'm pretty sure you won't be beaching your boat on Lake Tahoe.

Edited by - on

frogger
Navigator

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USA
184 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2008 : 17:24:50

I have a 2000 WK with wheel and have been completely satisfied - wouldn't have it any other way. Single handling is much easier as all lines are run to end of cockpit with all motor controls on wheel guard. Use the soft-link - never any problems motoring. It's an excellent configuration. I would not even consider a 250 WK any other way. Also, love the wing-keel design, just have to watch the depth.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2008 : 17:36:16

my Tuppence: I'm of the opionion that racers seem to like the fixed keel tiller boats and cruisers seem to like the swing & wheel.

Paul

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2008 : 18:58:41

GO WK!

There are times when I would like a wheel, like when I am sanding and varnishing my tiller. The rest of the time I rather have the tiller.

In my opinion the tiller takes up "less" room in the cockpit than the wheel. (yes I've sailed on both)

You never hear tiller guys say they take the tiller off to make more room in the cockpit

Ahhh the old wheel vs tiller thing pops up about every 6 months, that's an argument that will never end.

BTW; Welcome to the forum Martin! Your gonna love your 250 even with the wheel.

Edited by - Tom Potter on 01/03/2008 19:02:26

Jarrett Anderson
1st Mate

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61 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2008 : 23:20:08

It is sweet to motor out of the marina standing behind the helm; it's even sweeter to sit in the cat-bird seat steering your leather wrapped wheel with you big toe. Have John at Wind Toys demonstrate the maneuver. He sold me my WK with a wheel. I keep mine in the water year-round and use the trailer when I need a bottom job. My opinion is the water ballast is for the 250's that spend most of their time on a trailer.

If you need a demo sail come on over to Napa.

Cheers to the new boat!

Jarrett _/)

Edited by - on

zebra50
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2008 : 09:55:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jarrett Anderson
 It is sweet to motor out of the marina standing behind the helm; it's even sweeter to sit in the cat-bird seat steering your leather wrapped wheel with you big toe. Have John at Wind Toys demonstrate the maneuver. He sold me my WK with a wheel. I keep mine in the water year-round and use the trailer when I need a bottom job. My opinion is the water ballast is for the 250's that spend most of their time on a trailer.

If you need a demo sail come on over to Napa.

Cheers to the new boat!

Jarrett _/)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Lets not forget that great ability to beach. My WB stays in the water during the season at the harbor and only comes our for the winter months (Dec-March1). The ability to have the rudder kick up, I have the 2nd gen. kick up type, and to be able to pull up the keel make for great beaching and minimizing the impact of underwater objects in shallower water.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2008 : 11:44:17

How could I forget? The wheel also adds more stainless steel to the cockpit!

Edited by - on

zebra50
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2008 : 11:12:46

and it is removable to open up more cockpit space for exiting off the stern ladder.

Edited by - on

dwadle
1st Mate

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29 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2008 : 07:44:55

With a tiller, you can attach a hiking stick and sit where ever you like in the cockpit. You can even hike out! I love to singlehand my 250wk and the hiking stick makes it easy. Yesterday, I was out on Biscayne Bay keeping up with a fleet of Etchels (sp?) and blew by a larger Hunter.

I would love to have a wheel, but on a larger sailboat, like a Catalina 30 or so.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2008 : 14:18:05

Lots of good information here. It is great that Catalina gives us these options so each person can have the choice that works best for them.

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