Association Forum - Tall rig luff length - new sail arrived 2/11/08

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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Tall rig luff length - new sail arrived 2/11/08

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dmpilc
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Initially Posted - 01/08/2008 : 22:58:17

Would several of you who have measured your tall rig's luff length with a tape let me know what you recorded? I came to 31' 10" and it seems too long. I taped a metal tape measure to the jib halyard and subtracted for the overlap at the halyard shackle. I ran it all the way up and measured to the snap shackle at the bow. For some reason, i was expecting 31' 6" or less. I wonder haw much variance there is between rigs.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

Edited by - dmpilc on 02/11/2008 22:47:24

1981capri
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Response Posted - 01/09/2008 : 21:06:55

I don't have a tall rig so I don't know if this is helpful, but might be able to do it with math.

So if the Mast Height(a)= 31 and J (mast to bow)(b)= 10.3 then max luff(c) = 32.666343535817

Edited by - 1981capri on 01/09/2008 21:09:57

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/09/2008 : 22:59:08

But if J=10.5', then the forestay is 32.73, or 32' 8-3/4". Subtract from that whatever you choose for fittings.

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 01/10/2008 : 06:36:38

the I length is listed at 31'

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/10/2008 : 09:35:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Champipple
 the I length is listed at 31'<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's what we both used.

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 01/10/2008 : 09:59:57

The problem with this math, though, is that it gives you the hypotenuse of the triangle. That's not necessarily the luff of the head sail. You have to adjust for fittings, furlers, etc. The math for Kaija yields an answer over 30 feet. The luff length of my 110% is 27' and change.

So, to get back to David's question, has anybody measured the luff of their tall rig headsail?

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 01/10/2008 : 10:21:59

Lets try this approach - what are you trying to determine it for?

A new sail, a furler, rigging or just for kicks?

the pythagorean formula will give you a close answer, but it is flawed in some regards. Be sure to consider the cabintop and the area of the masthead above the connection. Also realize the connection at the top isn't directly to the mast. Also realize your J dimension is tweaked a bit too.

Pythagoras while flawed, is considered acceptible way to measure Sail area, but isn't always accurate to the last millimeter.

If we knew what you were trying to figure out we might be able to offer up something else. Unfortunately you have two former owners, a capri owner and a 250 owner on the thread up until now. None of which can (either by weather, boat type or both) actually run a tape up their own boat.

Are you applying for a PHRF certificate -> use 31'
Getting a new sail -> Tell the sailmaker you have a tall rig c25
Getting new rigging - > give the old rigging to the rigger
Getting a furler - > Us the old to measure the new
Just for Kicks -> Use the 31'6"

I think if your question is truly in regard to variance that you would find minimal variance between rigs if the same person measured. You will find people that think they have a tall rig but don't or vice versa, but I think the variance will be minimal.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 01/10/2008 : 10:54:29

According to Bacon sails at http://www.baconsails.com/database/boatspec.php it is 31.0

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 01/10/2008 : 13:03:20

According to the Original sales brochure it is 31' (see the link on the left)

One other item - A rigger, measurer or sailmaker would run a tapemeasure up the halyard as well the same way you did.

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 01/10/2008 : 18:25:30

Here's my issue. Back in the summer I considered buying a used genoa locally that was advertised as having a 31.5' luff. It came off of a Northstar 500, another 25' boat. As I had seen ads online stating a luff of 31.5' for a C-25 tall rig 150% genoa, I started to buy it. Granted, I didn't measure it first (didn't think I would need to), but when I hoisted it for inspection, the sail's luff was too long to fully raise it by several inches. This makes me question buying an off the shelf 150 that is advertised as having a 31.5' luff. Maybe it should be only 31'.
To put my question another way, for you C-25 tall riggers with hank on headsails, what does your 150's luff measure from top of head cringle to bottom of tack cringle? Does it equal or exceed 31.5'?

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/10/2008 : 19:22:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 To put my question another way, for you C-25 tall riggers with hank on headsails, what does your 150's luff measure from top of head cringle to bottom of tack cringle? Does it equal or exceed 31.5'?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's better. I don't know what these guys are talking about... 31.0' is the specified I and ISP for a C-25 TR--it isn't the forestay length or, except by coincidence, the luff length for a headsail. As I said above, from the forestay length, subtract for fittings, halyard splices, knots, or whatever. You might be able to get a precise answer from Catalina Direct or a sailmaker who has the dimensions.

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 01/10/2008 : 20:28:34

I find language interesting. David's question was simple:

"Would several of you who have measured your tall rig's luff length with a tape let me know what you recorded?"

Has no one actually measured the luff of their tall rig headsail? I'm guessing David already knew all this other stuff. He just wanted to know what others have found as the measurement for their sails.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/10/2008 : 21:18:19

He originally asked about the rig dimension--not the sail dimension. He thought his measurement of his rig was too long--it clearly wasn't. He was looking at using a non-standard sail. Now he wants the standard sail dimension, so he posed a new question. I can't answer that, so I'm signing off.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/10/2008 21:20:29

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 01/10/2008 : 23:35:26

Thanks for helping to clarify, Dave and John. And thanks Dan and Beth for the geometry refresher. It's always harder to communicate with the written word than it is speaking face-to-face. I guess I started out asking one question and, perhaps, ended up asking another. I wanted to find out if there was much variance between boats in the actual measurements, not theoretical measurements and, therefore, if there was much risk in ordering off the shelf headsails for the tall rig. Since things seemed to be getting confusing, I tossed out the last question about actual sail luff measurements.

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OLarryR
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Response Posted - 01/11/2008 : 06:21:47

If it's any help, when I get home I could take my old 110 furling rig headsail out of the bag and measure it's dimensions. But then you do not have whatever dimension remains above and below the sail as part of the furling hardware. let me know if that Genoa's dimensions would be any help. I believe I have it at home unless I left it in a storage area on the boat - either way it is easy enough for me to retrieve. I am using my 150 genoa right now - It's in better condition than the 110. (I am waiting on my new Quantum Main and 150 genoa to be completed and delivered.)

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 01/11/2008 : 06:43:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 if there was much risk in ordering off the shelf headsails for the tall rig. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Who is the sailmaker? Off the shelf sails specifically for a catalina 25 are only made by a few lofts nationally. Ullman's loft in Ventura and Cruising Direct are the only two that I know of that may have them premade, not to say there aren't others. Those are made based on the IJPE measurements from the MFG so you should be okay buying one. Most reputable companies will allow you to return an off the shelf sail if it doesn't fit.

Incidentally, the luff measurement in the racing rules lists a maximum of 32' for a tall and 30' for a std. Both 1' more than the I measurement.

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 01/12/2008 : 00:07:33

Since I'm not planning to race this boat, I've been looking at FX and vendors who I know carry Rolly Tasker sails.

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 01/12/2008 : 11:00:21

I just ordered a 135% Rolly Tasker from National Sail Supply based on a glowing recommendation from a forum member who has purchased a main, genoa and is ordering a third. The price is great. Scott thought the service to be very good.

http://www.nationalsail.com/

Edited by - John Russell on 01/12/2008 11:01:04

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 01/13/2008 : 20:38:30

I found a used 150 from another C-25 T/R sailor, for $200 plus shipping. I'm changing my new sail sights to the 135, also from National Sail Supply. Please let us know how your purchase works out. Would you also supply us with the sail's actual measurements? Thanks.

Edited by - dmpilc on 01/13/2008 20:46:34

Frank Hopper
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Response Posted - 01/14/2008 : 08:55:07

David, I do not race anymore, when I decided to buy a 135 for FellowShip I wanted to get exactly what I wanted. I have described this purchase many times so forgive me if you are already familiar with it. I wanted a sail that would stay unfurled as long as possible, that is because the Catalina 25 is headsail driven and my mainsail reefing is so easy to do that I can do it on any point of sail so I will often reef the main before I reef the headsail. A reefed headsail is a lousy upwind sail if you care about sail shape. I am a sailshape fanatic. SO to maintain a clean entry at the luff I need to leave my 135 full as long as possible. Catalina 25s are moderately canvassed, so the idea of loosing the area of a 150 in favor of the single handling ease of a 135 is also disturbing so I decided to maximize the size of the 135 buy having it built with a maximum hoist rather than the typical shorter hoist of a 135, so I took a tape to the boat and measured the distance that I had to work with. I also had the clew lowered so there is as much true sail area as possible to my 135. Because I leave it unreefed up into the upper teens I had it designed flatter than normal, it also reefs cleaner with a flatter shape. I also had it built out of a slightly heavier cloth so the higher winds would not stretch it out too quickly. I specified woven straps rather than SS rings at the tack and head, I specified a telltale window and a set of telltales at 100% so when I do reef I now where 100% is. I did a few other things to the specifications as well. My point is that Who cares what John bought, I think you should be focused on what you want and order it. You have your rig measurement, decide what you want the 135 to be and order that. Or if you don't care about all those things that keep me up at night then just order the stock sail from one of the companies that carries the Rolly sails, like I said, 135s have short hoists anyway so any of them will fit.

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 01/14/2008 : 16:03:41

Thanks, Frank. We're not intending to race our 25 either, except maybe Wed. evening club races in the summer. I've still got the C-22 for serious class racing. What's interesting about the Rolly 135 is that is is a full hoist sail. It has the same luff length as their 150. I talked to the guy at National Sail in Brooksville, FL today and decided to go ahead and order it, with a twist. I ordered 5 oz. material instead of their standard 4.5 oz. and I ordered a cunnungham cringle. I passed on the telltale window. Price was $599 plus $25 for the cunningham. The heavier cloth added $20 to the basic price.

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Frank Hopper
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Response Posted - 01/14/2008 : 20:00:59

Well done. Sounds like a great sail.

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 02/11/2008 : 22:46:26

The new 135 arrived today. Looks great, can't wait to hoist it. Feel like a kid with a new toy who's not allowed to play with it. I'm a little confused about one thing. There is a tag on it that says 100% polyester. Never seen that on a sail before. Is dacron a type of polyester?

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 02/12/2008 : 07:20:56

Dacron is a trademark for polyester fabric.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-Dacron.html

My new 135 is scheduled for delivery today.

Edited by - John Russell on 02/12/2008 07:22:53

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 02/12/2008 : 12:10:14

I have not put on my new sails yet. I have an IDE Furling Rig. I can measure the sail dimensions of my new Quantum 150 when I get home. Quantum took measurements directly off my boat before making the sails.

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 02/12/2008 : 12:42:37

Well, my Rolly Tasker 135% is here.

So is a fresh 3 to 6 inches of snow.

Hope my snowblower starts.

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