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My first big lesson

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 02/04/2008 : 19:47:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 2far2drive
 Thanks Frank/Jim, Im trying, a lot to learn to say the least. Im going to start taking practicing maneuvers much more seriously. I bought the boat in aug and it sat until Jan while I was waiting on the engine to come back, so I have been just sailing as much as I can without much practice on the things I need to work on.

Well, Boom vang was just purchased from CD, so thats on the way.

Since my maststep doesnt have the ring for the block, I got the stainless one with 2 bails. Im looking at some other hardware to replace the PO installed crap to run my halyards to cockpit. I would prefer to have them on the cabin top, is this area recommended to install 2 small halyard winches with rope clutches? Also, since I cant find the little swivel blocks I have mounted into the deck, when I haul out, I might switch the maststep to the halyard plate one and just buy some blocks for that. They are a little cheaper to go that route. My question is, the vang shouldnt be affected if I switch out the plates right? It doesn't seem like it would to me, but maybe Im missing something.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, most likely the vang shouldn't be affected. Just so you know, the mast step holes for the newer step don't line up to the current setup. You will need to remove the old and redrill holes in the new so everything lines up correctly. If you put that step on, you really don't need pop up blocks because the load on the line will keep blocks off the deck. Otherwise, the popup is merely a spring that goes on the bottom of a regular block.

dw

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2008 : 21:26:32

With all due respect, DavidP's 4-part adjustable outhaul is important for a racer--overkill for a daysailor IMVHO. Put it down your list, way below the vang, halyards led aft, and jib dousing line--or... (mmmm-hmmmmm) a roller furler.

You'll find pix of halyard setups on Frank's site (I believe) and in the Tech Tips section. It works great between the pop-top and the handrails, with room for a winch (which I didn't have). You can run the reefing line(s) back, too.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2008 : 22:46:02

You will also save on winches by running your lines through the clutch to a turning block to guide it to the winch. That way all of the lines can go to the same winch.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2008 : 23:15:36

Dave's right, the outhaul suggestion is not as high on the list as a vang, lines led aft, or the jib dousing line, because you can just tie off the outhaul and forget about it when pleasure sailing. However, if you are buying a block or blocks anyway, why not set it up so the adjustments are easier? That said, I would agree to focus first on the vang, then the halyards lead aft, and a jib dousing line. Those will all make handling the boat alone safer. I focused on the outhaul because the other stuff had been covered. The jib dousing line will be the easiest, if you have lifelines, because it requires the least amount of drilling. Look at a lot of other boats and see how they are set up, especially any other C-25's you can find. Take the ideas you like and adapt them to your boat. Good luck with your projects.

Edited by - on

brrit
1st Mate

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80 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 07:27:08

Hey David:

Sounds to me like you did a great job! Perfect? Well... No, but what in this life is?

Don't get down on yourself about the comments from the others on the board. They are just trying to help in case you find yourself in this position again.

You know... There are a couple of guys on the board from Kemah. I don't want to volunteer them, but maybe they would poke their heads in here. With a little luck and persuasion (beer, dinner, etc.), maybe you could have them take a look at your boat and give you some ideas too.

Don't put the boat on the hard though.

Edited by - on

gbeardjr
Navigator

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USA
101 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 09:37:10

I'm one of those guys. Where do you keep your boat? I just moved from Watergate down to Bal harbour marina I am on the water almost every weekend. Ready for Double Bayou yet?

Edited by - on

2far2drive
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 10:08:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by gbeardjr
 I'm one of those guys. Where do you keep your boat? I just moved from Watergate down to Bal harbour marina I am on the water almost every weekend. Ready for Double Bayou yet?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Im just across the lake from you on the north side. My marina is spitting distance from the Endeavor building, the little brown condos with the big white flag pole in front. The condos are "The Landing" right on Nasa RD1 & Kirby (turn just after Gabachos).

Ive might have seen you out, Ive been seeing quite a few C-25s.
If you could check out my rigging and make some suggestions, I would be more than happy to buy lunch/dinner or whatever. I have been looking for other C-25 owners on the lake to sail with.

Edited by - on

Champipple
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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 11:55:32

Hey david - sent you an email

Edited by - on

2far2drive
1st Mate

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74 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 14:17:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Champipple
 Hey david - sent you an email
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

through the site or directly? I tried myself through the site and still havent gotten it. I havent gotten yours either. Try directly if you can.

biker_dude2300 AT yahoo DOT com

Edited by - on

Champipple
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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 15:03:19

will do.....I sent it through the forum which should deliver it to your address - if in fact that is what you have for your email when you signed up

Edited by - Champipple on 02/05/2008 15:06:34

2far2drive
1st Mate

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74 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 15:39:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Champipple
 will do.....I sent it through the forum which should deliver it to your address - if in fact that is what you have for your email when you signed up
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It is, its just taking forever for some reason. I tested one to myself as well, and I still havent gotten either.

Ive been checking out Frank's pictures all day of his rigging and stuff. Im getting some good ideas.

For halyards, would #6 or #7 winches be enough?

Edited by - on

2far2drive
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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 15:51:31

well my yahoo snagged it as spam and deleted it. sorry about that. I have made a new rule for it to accept messages from the forum. So, I didnt get it.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 16:29:56

My boat's PO moved the jib halyard winch from the mast to the cabin top when that halyard was led aft to the cockpit. At least that's what the holes in the mast indicate. I'll probably do the same with the main halyard winch, which is still on the mast. If you are replacing winches, try to stay with the same size. If you plan to use a cabin top winch to help raise/lower the mast, go with the larger size for safety.
Most of the set-ups I've seen where halyards are led aft have the jib halyard on the port side of the companionway and the main halyard on the starboard side. I would suggest double turning blocks and double line clutches (yes, get Spinlock), placing the line clutches in front of the winches. The turning blocks look like a long rectangle with 2 in-line blocks. After re-routing the halyards, you'll then have 1 open position on each side, which can later accommodate the vang, downhaul, cunningham, a second jib halyard, etc. If you are not planning to race, you probably won't need to spend the extra $ for the triples.

Edited by - dmpilc on 02/05/2008 16:31:58

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 16:59:11

To David's suggestion I'll add that a very few additional bucks for triple "deck organizers" (what he's calling "turning blocks") could be worthwhile--giving you more options down the road. Single, double, or triple clutches involve greater $$ differences, and you don't need clutches for low-stress lines like dousing lines--cam cleats (with fairleads) can suffice. Clutches are good for halyards and the vang.

Edited by - on

2far2drive
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Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 17:54:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Clutches are good for halyards and the vang.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well, I have been pricing hardware all night and some today during some free time. I have been trying to formulate a plan and do everything correctly, and here is what Im looking at, and some issues.

I just ordered the boom vang with 2 bails, but I plan on switching out the maststep with the halyard one and I might as well add the new STD plate with the boom vang loop in the front right? So, technically, now I have the wrong boom vang in the mail. So the issue is a matter of timing now, as I think I can still use the one with bails anyways even after chaning the maststeps. If I change the vang out and get the 1 bail vang, Ill have to wait to haul out until I can change the masteps, which will be sometime maybe mid march, or early april. Think the one Im ordering is any different from the one that clips onto the loop? Should I send the one I got back, and just wait or install what I ordered? I personally dont see a difference but thats just me.

The other issue with the vang is that when I asked the guy at CD he said running it aft would defeat some of its mechanical advanatge or something to that effect. Indeed after looking at Frank's pictures of his rigging all day, he has the cam cleat just under the boom and the line just sitting on the companionway hatch. The guy at CD said I can mount it either way so its up to me. Will I loose the mechanical advantage?

Im thinking #6 winches will be sufficient for my halyards/vang but I dont really know how to rate their mechanical advantages/working loads. Im thinking if my stock #7s can handle the jib sheet loads, then a halyward shouldnt be too much for a #6.

Next thing is the standing rigging. I want to switch it all out with CD replacements. As far as I know its all stock, and I have been inspecting them very carefully and have noticed light surface rust on and near the turnbuckles, which are closed body. I checked some of the tuning after I ordered and watched the CD "how to rig a c-22" video, and mine are OK, could be better tuned. I did notice a kink in the port aft lower if i remember correctly, so that has to go. Im considering a whole switch out, entire standing rigging, the lower/upper shroud chainplates, and the newer spreader brackets. Is installing the rigging pretty straightforward? Will I need to swedge things together?

I know this will be hell to tackle, and I dont really want to think about the cost, but Im going to be doing it all myself when I haul out, including the bottom job. Im just going to burn my vacation days on this and take around 5 days or so. Can all this be pulled off in 5 days with lets say, a little help?

I need/want to learn how to do all of this. This is getting to be a major thing for me. Ill try and explain quickly. First and foremost, I have always had a wierd obsession/attraction to sailing and then I combined all that with my surfing obsession and extream world travel ideas. I spent 1 month in Mexico 2 summers ago, and then last summer, 1 friend and I drove from Houston the entire length (almost) of the Gulf Coast of Mexico through Mexico, down the Guatemalan border, through Guatemala, and up the entire pacific from Guatemala to Puerto Vallarta. 73 days, 7015 miles. Camped 98% of the time, ate tuna, ramen, and street tacos. spent 1700 for everything including gas.

I gave up my easy going job with 2 month paid summers every year for a government 8-6 with good pay, low vacay time, to try and get it all together for the "BIG ONE". When I say that, Im talking 1-3 years on the road/sea with no real agenda. I have been battling back and forth to either sail, or drive. They both have advanatages/disadvantages, driving being almost hands down cheaper. Buying and outfitting a decent bluewater boat of 27-30' is a major upfront cost. I have 3-5 years to save and figure out what its going to be for me, so meanwhile, Im trying to learn as much as I can about sailing and sail as much as I can. Anyways, so, now you guys understand a little. I didnt want to spend much money on this boat especially when Im already looking at Tartan 30s, Titans, Alberg 30s, Albin 30s, and Vega 27s. Im starting to see that it needs to be done because even if I try and sell mine now, most people will want all of this work to be done anyways and I want to learn it because I enjoy doing my own work and being capable of fixing my own stuff.

Jeeeze thats long! Anyways, yea, rigging

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 18:20:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 2far2drive
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Clutches are good for halyards and the vang.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well, I have been pricing hardware all night and some today during some free time. I have been trying to formulate a plan and do everything correctly, and here is what Im looking at, and some issues.

I just ordered the boom vang with 2 bails, but I plan on switching out the maststep with the halyard one and I might as well add the new STD plate with the boom vang loop in the front right? keep the same step - just put the halyard plate in underneath it. The boom vang will work just fine using only one bail...Sure there isn't one on the mast already?

So, technically, now I have the wrong boom vang in the mail.not really, just an extra bail So the issue is a matter of timing now, as I think I can still use the one with bails anyways even after chaning the maststeps. If I change the vang out and get the 1 bail vang, Ill have to wait to haul out until I can change the masteps, which will be sometime maybe mid march, you can always drop it at the dockor early april. Think the one Im ordering is any different from the one that clips onto the loop? Should I send the one I got back, and just wait or install what I ordered? I personally dont see a difference but thats just me. there isn't much of a difference.

The other issue with the vang is that when I asked the guy at CD he said running it aft would defeat some of its mechanical advanatge or something to that effect. maybe, but doubtful - especially when you will have a winch to crank it in on. Indeed after looking at Frank's pictures of his rigging all day, he has the cam cleat just under the boom and the line just sitting on the companionway hatch. The guy at CD said I can mount it either way so its up to me. Will I loose the mechanical advantage?not at all - mechanical advantage is in the number of blocks (pulleys), how the line runs through them, and how it is attached. you won't lose any by reversing it 

Im thinking #6 winches will be sufficient for my halyards/vang but I dont really know how to rate their mechanical advantages/working loads. Im thinking if my stock #7s can handle the jib sheet loads, then a halyward shouldnt be too much for a #6.bigger loads on the headsail than the halyard - number should go up

Next thing is the standing rigging. I want to switch it all out with CD replacements. As far as I know its all stock, and I have been inspecting them very carefully and have noticed light surface rust on and near the turnbuckles, which are closed body. I checked some of the tuning after I ordered and watched the CD "how to rig a c-22" video, and mine are OK, could be better tuned. I did notice a kink in the port aft lower if i remember correctly, so that has to go. Im considering a whole switch out, entire standing rigging, the lower/upper shroud chainplates, and the newer spreader brackets. Is installing the rigging pretty straightforward? Will I need to swedge things together? they will come swedged. Kinks are not good, nor is rust. The new stainless spreader brackets are fairly straightforward, but have a High F factor (number of times you use the profanity beginning with F during the job) You need to line up a compression piece inside the mast and that is not the easiest of tasks. search the forum here for more details. Also - take a picture of the spreader brackets - lets make sure you have the old ones.

One last thing - While Lowell at CD is a good resource, they are not your only one. Boats are not like cars - at least modern cars. There really isn't any such thing as factory original replacement parts. So make sure you search the web. Get the catalogs. Line for example - ebay, layline (though some have become displeased with the new website) amongst others. Hardware - Harken direct clearance, Defender.com outlet, APS, Layline, Catalina Direct.....

Your rigging for example, you might get a better deal at your local sail loft....If there is a cheap way to get quality product on your decks, cabins and masts, I've done it.



I know this will be hell to tackle, and I dont really want to think about the cost, but Im going to be doing it all myself when I haul out, including the bottom job. Im just going to burn my vacation days on this and take around 5 days or so. Can all this be pulled off in 5 days with lets say, a little help?

I need/want to learn how to do all of this. This is getting to be a major thing for me. Ill try and explain quickly. First and foremost, I have always had a wierd obsession/attraction to sailing and then I combined all that with my surfing obsession and extream world travel ideas. I spent 1 month in Mexico 2 summers ago, and then last summer, 1 friend and I drove from Houston the entire length (almost) of the Gulf Coast of Mexico through Mexico, down the Guatemalan border, through Guatemala, and up the entire pacific from Guatemala to Puerto Vallarta. 73 days, 7015 miles. Camped 98% of the time, ate tuna, ramen, and street tacos. spent 1700 for everything including gas.

I gave up my easy going job with 2 month paid summers every year for a government 8-6 with good pay, low vacay time, to try and get it all together for the "BIG ONE". When I say that, Im talking 1-3 years on the road/sea with no real agenda. I have been battling back and forth to either sail, or drive. They both have advanatages/disadvantages, driving being almost hands down cheaper. Buying and outfitting a decent bluewater boat of 27-30' is a major upfront cost. I have 3-5 years to save and figure out what its going to be for me, so meanwhile, Im trying to learn as much as I can about sailing and sail as much as I can. Anyways, so, now you guys understand a little. I didnt want to spend much money on this boat especially when Im already looking at Tartan 30s, Titans, Alberg 30s, Albin 30s, and Vega 27s. Im starting to see that it needs to be done because even if I try and sell mine now, most people will want all of this work to be done anyways and I want to learn it because I enjoy doing my own work and being capable of fixing my own stuff.

Jeeeze thats long! Anyways, yea, rigging

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 18:52:40

Wow! This is such an intense teaching experience.

I would only hope that you can have a few beautiful, peaceful, breezy days of sailing with your boat as it is, without new modifications.

If there is too much wind for "peaceful", then the above advice about reefing the main and using a small 110% jib is the answer.

You might love the boat as it is, given a few more good outings.

Others have mentioned a storm jib. I was amazed last summer at how much control was regained on my boat by using both a storm jib and a reefed mainsail beating to windward in 25 knot winds. It was just great! Instead of excessive heel and annoying spray and danger to the rig, the boat calmed down from 5.5 to 4 knots. I could sit back and relax that morning.

A little more practise with your boat and things will work out just fine. The improvements you plan should only add to your enjoyment.

Happy sailing.

Edited by - on

Champipple
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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 19:31:49

I just wish 25kts of breeze was sailable in this area. 3 directions out of 4 and about 9 times out of 10 25 kts brings 6 to 8 footers about 3 seconds apart.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 19:44:27

Well, David, there sure is a lot to be said for intensity.

When I read your initial post, there was nothing about it that made me think: "This guys gotta buy equipment." What I thought was: "This guy needs someone to help him learn to sail better and to help him insure his boat is seaworthy."

I'm not really convinced that buying all this new equipment is really what you need. I think you might be better off spending some time with an experienced sailor and get to know what it is that you're buying. You said that your deck hardware was loose and that you didn't trust it. For example, you never said that your winches were non-functional. They may work just fine. It might be that you need a little more practice with using them. You might even have a halyard plate at the base of your mast and not recognize it as one. As long as your boom is secured to your mast, you can sail your boat without a boom vang. (I know, heresy) Maybe not as technically well but you can sail. I don't know the status of your equipment, but I do know that throwing money at the boat won't make you a better sailor.

I agree that having everything led back to the cockpit is terrific. But, understand that a lot of singlehanded sailors log many miles without that configuration.

I don't have anywhere near the experience these other guys have. If any of them had actually seen your boat, they would certainly make informed recommendations far better than I could. But, they haven't so they are making educated assumptions about what it is that you need. They may very well be right. They certainly have been in the past. I just think the focus has been on equipment more than experience. I think you will benefit more from learning than from shopping.

You may already have everything on board that you need to have safe, comfortable sailing adventures. Sure, you probably need a lot of maintenance but, that’s a lot less expensive than buying a lot of new stuff.

By the way, when it comes time to sell your C25 and buy your blue water boat, all the new equipment will not increase the sale price a whole lot.

My 2 cents. And then some.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 19:53:19

A few opinions from the $+!nkp*++er...

If you install the vang with bales, you can independently install the mast base plate for leading lines back. The plate goes beneath your existing mast step (tabernacle).

CD's standing rigging is first-class, with bronze open-body turnbuckles and all other hardware swaged on. Mine fit perfectly out of the box. My local rigger said he could make all of it, but for the price, to get CD's. You might find a way to do better, but I'd say the odds are against it.

I'm not at all sure about this, but I think '83s had the stainless spreader sockets. You can tell easily--the stainless ones are shiny with welds around the bases (tubes to plates). The aluminum ones (that should be replaced eventually) are dull castings. If you have the aluminum ones with no visible cracks, they should go on your upgrade list, but they're not critical.

Now, as several have said, the '83 C-25 is a sound, well-rigged vessel. If you're not sailing over the horizon into tropical storms, you should be able to enjoy yours as-is, and upgrade her at your leisure. A vang is an improvement (but not critical)... the stays and shrouds are probably due (but probably not dangerous)... halyards led back are great... yadda, yadda, yadda... Sail the boat in some more reasonable conditions, look around the marina, and take things one (or a few) at a time. We'd rather see you on the water than in the yard.

Fair winds!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/05/2008 19:55:21

2far2drive
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Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 20:21:57

Well, I need to clarify a little then. Intensity is a good word for the rate that I tend to absorb information. You cannot believe the blitz I have thrown myself into over all of this, reading everything I can get my hands on. Im currently working through 15ish back issues of "Good Old Boat" or whatever it is. Smashed through a Don Casey read on brightworks and refinishing. Moved up to Roth "How to Sail Around the World". I do understand most of what is said. There are still some words that catch me off guard, for instance, fairleads, I dont know what they are. I work in the IT industry and computers, especially Google are my friends. Everything I have ever learned from working in my field of computers/servers I have learned from books and google. Im am pretty good at self teaching and I believe very strongly in it.

When I said I do not trust my current deck mounted rigging, its because I dont. I have 2 blocks near the mast, one at port, other on starboard. They are a wierd type with a base that screws into my deck through some bedding and act the sameway the halyward maststep or whatever its called does with blocks attached. The little wheels inside are plastic and have begun cracking and they generally suck, not to mention are not through bolted. Call me overkill, but when I get to yanking on my currently led aft jib halyard, I can hear em creaking. From that block it passes through a little line guide of some sort to keep it all organzed. This is screwed into a little piece of wood into the deck. I can move them with my hands no problem. Thats not good. All this terminates into a cleat on my cabin top, not through bolted, that I can move with my hands. Not good again.

I could re-epoxy and redrill and rebed all this stuff, but the hardware is cheap enough for me to say screw it. I dont have cabin top winches, and it takes everything I have to get that jib up, and even sometimes I cannot get it set as tightly as it needs to be. My mast winch and my cockpit winches work great, need to be oiled, but they work and I know how to work them, decently anyways.

My standing I want to redo because of that kink and well, if that mast comes down, I can assure you all, that will be the last day with that boat. I would probably scuttle her to not deal with disposal fees of some type. I do mean that. I love her, but Im not too sure of her exact role in my life right now, and if I do decide to buy something bluewater and do this crazy aspiration, getting a new mast and reparing all the damage is throwing money away. I love spending every second on that boat, but I know where to stop when going crazy. I was completely crazy when I bought it, wanted to repaint everything yadda yadda. Then some experienced boaters/sailors told me that since this is my first boat, to just enjoy it and have fun. What if I would have been scared like crazy that day out in the winds and decided screw sailing after I blew 3k in paint and upgrades? Im too "tight" for that. Im looking at some basic hardware upgrades to make my life easier and safer out there. I enjoy little VERY amature racing out there and some of these parts will help me point better and achieve a better sail shape.

Heck, if I just skipped the standing rigging, I could outfit this thing the way I want for maybe 600 bucks, but I want to know that my rig is solid, and Ill rest a little easier when I know my poor shrowds arnt probably 23yrs old.

I do need tons, TONS, more sailing experience, but Im working on it. If I can take my time rigging, and not burn any vacation days, Im considering signing up to crew in the Galveston to Veracruz Mexico race in June. I cant think of anything more experience gaining than that!

Anyways, yes, my rig will probably work, and it did that day and does now. If anything all she NEEDS, is to have the reefing fixed. I just want to rest assured

Edited by - 2far2drive on 02/05/2008 20:26:18

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2008 : 21:16:35

David--your perspective is good. But your halyard hardware isn't.

You're right--it should not be just screwed down--it should be thru-bolted. One good pull and those blocks by the mast base might pop out--I'm surprised they haven't. More importantly, that loose stuff lets water into the plywood core in the cabintop. I suggest you remove the stuff, seal the holes (for now), and use the cleats on the mast until you get around to installing what you want, thru-bolted. That or drill through, bolt and bed what you have, and then replace at your leisure. You just don't want water getting in there.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 09:28:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 I agree that having everything led back to the cockpit is terrific. But, understand that a lot of singlehanded sailors log many miles without that configuration.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Count me among them.

I did the main halyard led aft thing for a bit, but shortly thereafter reverted back to raising/lowering the main at the mast since it works out better for how I sail my boat. With me having roller furling, it is not necessary to run the jib halyard aft. I do have my topping lift, outhaul, and cunningham led aft and for a short time my vang too, but I found it better to just flip the vang.

David,

Since every sailor has different ways of doing things and what works for one person might not work for another, I would put off doing a wholesale change with your running rigging that might be based on how someone else sails until you've put some miles under your keel. This will give you experience and a better idea as to what you actually need to make life easier for you on the water.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
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Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 10:42:15

David, there are certain devices that each of us consider essential, and, as you can see, we differ in our thinking about those things.

You can do without a boom vang, if you don't mind the boom lifting and flopping over your head, especially when you gybe, and if you don't mind the mainsheet whipping around the cockpit when you're sailing downwind, and if you don't mind being passed by all the other boats. A boom vang is easy to install, and I wouldn't enjoy sailing without one.

To my way of thinking, if your mainsail is loose-footed, a functional, adjustable outhaul is indispensable. If your mainsail is attached to the boom, you can lash your outhaul in place, but you won't be able to increase the tension and move the draft of the sail forward when the wind is blowing hard, and when you need to depower your mainsail to keep the boat on it's feet. Again, an adjustable outhaul is easy to install. I used a 3 part outhaul on my boat, and found it adequate. I occasionally adjusted it under a light load, but never adjusted it under a heavy load, so didn't need any more mechanical advantage. When I wanted to increase outhaul tension in strong winds, I'd pop the mainsheet, so the sail was luffing, then tension the outhaul, and then re-tension the mainsheet. It only took a couple of seconds.

As Don pointed out, if you lead your lines aft to the cockpit, you might find later that you led one or two lines aft that really weren't necessary. But, a boom vang and an outhaul are not items that you'll regret having installed.

Also, for the most part, I don't take into consideration whether I intend to race or cruise the boat. In either case, I want the boat to perform well in all conditions. If I'm racing, I want the boat to be able to point high so I can outrun my opponents, but if I'm cruising, I want it to be able to point high so it will sail well to windward and be able to claw off a lee shore. Good performance not only helps you race. It also helps you cruise or daysail. There are certain adjustments that you need to be able to make if you want the boat to perform nicely, regardless of whether you race or cruise.

If you want the boat to perform reasonably well in all conditions, you need a practical way to adjust the tension on the luff of the jib, the luff of the mainsail, and the foot of the mainsail, and you need a vang to hold the boom in place. On a 25' boat, those devices don't have to be complicated.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 02/06/2008 10:44:28

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 15:34:37

Sometimes I think that as we gain more experience, we forget the rudimentary things. Steve, I think you are spot on with your advice. You're exactly right in saying that racing skills help whenever one sails but, We crawl before we walk and walk before we run.

David doesn't need a 3 part outhaul for adjusting the main in a blow, he needs to know how to dump the mainsheet. He needs to learn how to reef. He needs to know what sails to set when. He needs to practice balancing his main and jib. Eventually, he will want to learn how to finesse the sail shape, now he needs to practice how to keep the boat under control. I'm assuming since he has no vang, he has a fixed boom -- not very likely to whack him while at the tiller. Yes, it will lift with a gybe, but only to the extent the mainsheet will allow it. If gybing correctly, it shouldn't be a huge lift since he will be sheeting in as the wind passes astern. The safety item would be knowing how to rig a preventer to reduce the risk of accidentally gybing the boat and injuring himself, his crew or his rig.

I've spent a fair amount of my life doing training needs assessments and designing performance improvement strategies. I think David will benefit from upgrades that make his boat safer but, I think he will find more benefit from time and experience applying that which he has read to the real world. Add the sophisication as his experience builds.

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