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My first big lesson

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4312 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 19:15:32

David,

I'm at Watergate and I'm going to try and work on my boat this weekend. Maybe we could meet somewhere. If gbeardjr's going to be around maybe we could get a three boat fleet and have some fun.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 19:19:56

I'm assuming since he has no vang, he has a fixed boom --
I don't understand the correlation of those two things.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 19:51:20

John, I'm talking about hardware, not sailing skills. My thinking is that minimal equipment for every cruising sailboat should include a boom vang and an outhaul adjuster. You say that the mainsheet will control the boom, but it won't. When the boat is running before the wind, and the boom is swinging forward and out over the gunwale, the mainsheet won't hold the boom down. That's what the vang does. People who are just learning to sail don't always sail a straight line, and there's a considerable risk of an unintentional gybe, which is, at best, frightening. A boom vang helps control the swinging of the boom, and reduces the likelihood of injury or damage in the event of a gybe. It's very rare to ever see a cruising boat without a boom vang, and that alone attests to their importance in the eyes of the overwhelming majority of sailors.

An adjustable outhaul is equally important, although all too many sailors don't realize it, and unfortunately, many boats aren't equipped with one. The overall shape of the mainsail can only be adjusted in two directions - along the luff and along the foot. If you don't have an outhaul adjuster, you're giving up the ability to make one of the two basic adjustments to the sail shape. Many people just lash their outhaul, and can't adjust it, and the result often is that you'll see them trying to sail with a deep pocket in their mainsail, and heeling excessively, and struggling to make the boat sail to windward. If they could adjust the tension of the outhaul and the tension along the luff, the boat would not labor so much, and would stand up, and drive to windward (not to mention the fact that their crew would be happier.) That's one of the very problems that David was having.

These are not advanced principles. Even novice sailors know that the sails should have a fuller shape in light air and a flatter shape in strong winds. The device that changes the mainsail shape along the foot is the outhaul adjuster. If a novice sailor has an outhaul adjuster, then he'll soon play with it in different winds, and learn to use it. If he doesn't have one, he'll probably never try to adjust his outhaul tension, and he'll never realize how much better the boat will sail if he'll learn to adjust the outhaul tension for different windstrengths.

Leading the control lines to the cockpit is mostly a convenience, and a safety factor, but a boat can be sailed perfectly efficiently without doing so. As I see it, sailing a boat without an adjustable outhaul and a boom vang would be like driving a car with two spark plug wires disconnected. You could do it, but it would be neither efficient nor satisfying.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 21:38:43

2far - sent you another email both from here and direct- wondering if it is going to your spam folder

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 22:42:39

Frank, the assumption is that the PO sailed this boat without a vang or he would have sold it with the boat. The idea of the fixed boom is assumed because without it being fixed, it would tend to rise up under normal sailing conditions. I agree that the boom needs something to hold it down. I'm just saying that the vang isn't the only way.

Steve, I think it's dangerous to think that a vang will act as a preventer in an uncontrolled gybe. A vang will allow the boom to make all the lateral movement it wants at whatever force it wants to make it. You're right, every boat in my marina probably has a vang. I'm not suggesting he not get it, I'm simply suggesting that the purchase of equipment will not really address the issue at hand and may lead to a false sense of security. As I said before, the mainsheet will control the boom (rising) in a controlled gybe if the gybe is done correctly, i.e. sheet in as the boom approaches midline and sheet out as it moves to the other side of the boat. Admittedly not as well as a vang, but adequately enough to be safe. A preventer is really the only way to protect against damage and/or injury in an uncontrolled gybe. Neither the vang nor the mainsheet, or the two in combination, will suffice in that case.

You said that every cruising sailboat should have a boom vang and an adjustable outhaul and I don't disagree. But, it's a matter of early lessons or later ones. In David's original post, his concern about sail shape was more likely due to his inability to get the sail to the masthead. If I were a betting man, I'd bet his fixed outhaul had the foot of his sail as tight as would be possible. So, he if he had deep pockets it was likely due to the luff being shortened. His later posting reflecting his concern for the sail slugs made me think that he just didn't get the sail up high enough. I'd be worried about a novice sailor trying to adjust the outhaul to flatten a sail or the vang to give it twist to bleed air (as Frank has eloquently described elsewhere) when he really needs to dump the mainsheet or put in a reef, or heave-to or all the above before he gets knocked down.

We're on the same side of the fence here. I just think that it's important to develop large motor skills before attempting fine ones.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2008 : 22:51:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...As I see it, sailing a boat without an adjustable outhaul and a boom vang would be like driving a car with two spark plug wires disconnected. You could do it, but it would be neither efficient nor satisfying.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">To me, single-handing without having lines led back is like having to sit on the hood of your car to get it going, even though the brake and steering wheel are inside. And sail shape control via an adjustable outhaul, when you have a bolt-rope in the boom, is limited to how much you can stretch and compress the bolt rope, which isn't much. Does that mean a new C-25 sailor should immediately buy a new loose-footed main? No.

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2008 : 09:54:33

I agree with what some are saying here about not exactly needing all these upgrades right away and to continue learning to sail with what you have and maybe a few upgrades. The boat is 25 years old and has been sailing all these years without those upgrades. You don’t need to sink in a lot of money right away to start having fun, learning, and improving your skills.

In my case, the first year I had my C-25, the outhaul came fixed and I rarely used my boom vang in the beginning. Nothing is lead back to my cockpit either. When I first bought her, I thought about so many upgrades I wanted to make, including running lines back to the cockpit. I decided to learn with what I had for the time being. I learned about how the outhaul controls sail shape on my friend Dave’s boat and eventually started using my boom vang as well. When you are starting out, there are just so many things to learn. As you get the hang of things, then you learned about all the little tweaks that can be made to sail more efficiently. I would highly recommend getting the boom vang and adjustable outhaul since they are inexpensive, easy to install, and are useful. Last year made some improvements and bought the adjustable outhaul kit and topping lift kit from Catalina Direct and I’d recommend them. The prices were about the same, maybe slightly less than buying all the parts separately and you don’t have to figure out which parts to buy; just a simple kit with everything needed.

About running lines to the cockpit, I’ve read a lot on it and discussed with my sailing friends, but I do not plan to make that change. Depending on your set up you will probably still have to go forward to set a reef and tie/untie sail (unless you also have lazy jacks to prevent the sail from going over). I’m sure most people that have lines back to the cockpit are very happy with their set up. I am also happy with my setup at the mast. It doesn’t take much time for me to raise/lower/reef the sail. It is also easier with a more direct pull, less friction, less expensive (make that no expense), and you don’t have to worry about the other needed hardware. One thing I would recommend to help while single handling is some kind of tiller stay. I have the Davis Tiller Stay and it usually holds my course well enough motoring into the wind to raise and lower my main while single handling. There are other methods and eventually a tiller pilot would be a great upgrade.

Just have fun with your boat and don’t feel like you need to make all these costly upgrades right away. If I were you, I would buy the outhaul and boom vang kits. I would reseal/install the poorly installed deck hardware to prevent water damage to the core. Someone else already mentioned how all these upgrades will not increase your resale value that much. If you are already thinking about your next cruising boat in a couple years, I wouldn’t bother sinking in too much money. Get out there and have fun! You will be looking back in a year or two and be amazed at how much you’ve learned. I know I have.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2008 : 10:03:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 David,

I'm at Watergate and I'm going to try and work on my boat this weekend. Maybe we could meet somewhere. If gbeardjr's going to be around maybe we could get a three boat fleet and have some fun.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now this is an offer you can't refuse. Way to go, GaryB.

Edited by - on

2far2drive
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2008 : 10:11:37

Woa!!!

Ok, first of all, Yes, I couldnt get the sail up all the way. I made a mistake by having the mainsheet pulled tight when raising the sail so she veered off quickly.

I have played with my basic outhaul a little trying to get the sail tighter but something else isnt right about it, Ill investigate this weekend. I live an hour and half from the boat

Too late for the vang, will be here monday.

Maybe Im having beginners luck but I can point my boat very well and my friends Morgan25 also. Its not hard to me for some reason, give me a magnetic course or a landmark, Ill hold us there. I can feel my boat when its sailing its fastest and I can hold it there, quite easily actually. I learned how to dump the mainsheet when I went out on my friends morgan and we got knocked down but a large puff. I learned VERY well on an exciting day in the lake when I had her probably at 30 degrees or more a few times and took a large puff. I was fighting hard one time as she was trying to round up and I was determined to hold her without dumping the sheet for some real fun ( I was with my friend who has the morgan) and I literally had the tiller almost on the cockpit combing to try and hold her from rounding up, maybe around 35 degrees over.

While I have sailed downwind a few times, so far, I have not done any accidental gybing. IM too concerned about my rig to let that happen, Im a monkey on the mainsheet when I think that thing is coming around trust me.

Anyways, maybe Im having beginners luck or just being stupid, but so far, this is all pretty straightforward to me, not really rocket science. I would love to really learn how to correct sail shape, and I have been trying. The day I raced my friend I had my dad on the tiller and I was everywhere on that boat, jacking with lines, trying to get the best speed and see what kind of a difference different adjustments make. Its very fun to experiment with the boat and find out how to make her sail her fastest.

Anyways, I want to say thanks for all the great advice. I will be spending alot more time practicing for days like my sunday. I actually cant wait until I have another, it was for the mostpart fun.

GaryB, this weekend looks bad for me. Im headed down sunday only and thats to jack with the engine and see whats the deal. Changing spark plugs and gonna try that. Know a lot about outboards? Ill buy ya lunch for some help, then maybe we can go sailing!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2008 : 10:19:26

Hi John,
My take on this:
The adjustable gooseneck on the majority of C-25s certainly could be held down with a vang but it would not be the "boomvang". Most are held down with a nonpurchase downhaul or some simply use threaded stops in the mast tracks. The fixed boom was incorporated very late in the C-25 production run.
I consider a boomvang as the first safety device to add to an end of boom mainsheet system. If someone has mid boom sheeting it is less important but still very important. One of the safety issues it addresses in the reduction of accidental gybes is keeping the leech straight when off the wind. A puff will billow the main causing the boom to rise, the boom will then fall back into place. This "working of the leech causes the leech to take on a S shape on occasion, when that happens the wind can get behind the leech and when that happens the the main can gybe when you really do not expect it. A boomvang holds the leech tight preventing that from ever happening. Also the boomvang's downward tension keeps the main off the spreaders as long as possible and reduces "action" when the main is on the spreader, this of course would be very important for you 250 people.
Any time a boom moves off center from being over the traveler car the boom begins to rise, deepening the pocket. When a vang is set wile the boom is over the traveler car the leech tension and therefore the pocket stays the same on every point of sail, thereby controlling heel as the boat bears off, this helps new sailors a lot as the boat maintains its manners better on various points of sail.
Of course the term "preventer" has a very specific application regarding downwind sailing and a boomvang with a snap shackle at the mast base is easily reconfigured to be a true preventer, an option that is not available to someone without one.
2far, this level of anality is a function of deep winter boredom for most of us.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2008 : 11:59:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Frank Hopper
 2far, this level of anality is a function of deep winter boredom for most of us.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yup!

David, did you catch Frank's comment about using a snap shackle to attach your vang? Great idea! That way you'll be able to rig a preventer for those downwind runs. Frank probably has pictures.

One more thing and I'll shut up.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 2far2drive
 ... I was determined to hold her without dumping the sheet for some real fun ( I was with my friend who has the morgan) and I literally had the tiller almost on the cockpit combing to try and hold her from rounding up, maybe around 35 degrees over. While holding on for dear life might be quite an adrenaline rush, this much heel and this much weather helm reinforces the idea that practicing basic sailing techniques could be helpful. I would suggest (without having been there of course) that a little basic sail trim and you would have been going just as fast with less risk of dumping the mast in the water.

While I have sailed downwind a few times, so far, I have not done any accidental gybing. IM too concerned about my rig to let that happen, Im a monkey on the mainsheet when I think that thing is coming around trust me. Accidental gybes happen even to those that are "too concerned". That's kinda why they're called accidental.

Its very fun to experiment with the boat and find out how to make her sail her fastest. Yes, it is. It's the most fun when you know you have control of all the things you can control and are minimizing risk.

Who said "If it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen out there?"<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

In any event, David, you should be very proud of what you've done with your boat. It takes great big cajones to jump into the deep end like you have. Congratulations. May you always have fair winds and gently following seas.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2008 : 13:18:32

lots of great advice here.
All well intentioned, which is what I love about this site.

As I said previously, have fun and find out what your boat can do. I've done my share of unintended 360's and accidental jybes. The result I've obtained, based largely on advice gathered here, is a lot of confidence and now I'm fully in control and will not be doing any more unintended maneuvers.
With respect to all the advice on hardware - I listen very closely to what the experts and the experienced here have to say - and the result is that I have what probably is one of the most basic C25's in existence.
I have only what I absolutely need. I don't want a lot of stuff, nor do I want a cluttered boat. If my boat were a vehicle, it would be 1981 chev sedan - no air, no Power steering no power brakes, no radio and etc. But it runs like a top, its clean, its easy and fun to use and if it breaks - I can probably fix it myself. I know that roller-furling would be awesome, but I am glad I stuck with hank-on jibs. It would be nice to have more than two winches but I find that these are sufficient. I could have more clutches and deck organizers but I'd rather have all new standing rigging and a new sail.
My point is, it sounds like you are on the right track, so have fun with it and keep us up to date with your adventures.

Edited by - on

2far2drive
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2008 : 14:12:56

Man, you guys are great. Tons of advice and lessons here. Im going to read this thread once a week just as a reminder!

Thanks for all the replies to this topic.

Yea, Im going back and forth with riggin the boat to have the lines led aft, it would be nice, but yea, it is kind of unneccesary. I dont know, I have time to decide though.

Yea.... tons more adventures to come thats for sure, I have a great big bay to play in and when I get comfortable enough, some nice down the coast sailing points.

Champimpple, I didnt get either

Hrmmm.... I need to get that outboard runngin!

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2008 : 16:06:37

Must be getting caught in a spam filter

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2008 : 20:30:01

I appreciate a person with enough willpower to only log in once a week. I'm starting to get withdrawal pains if I miss 1 day!

Edited by - dmpilc on 02/07/2008 20:30:17

Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2008 : 21:05:27

Up until this thread, I couldn't understand the need for a vang. I saw it as a duplication of the mainsheet. My C25 has a unique traveler mount above the cabin that reminds me of a radar arch that the mainsheet attaches to. Now I understand how at a reach, the vang will keep the foot down while the mainsheet will control the sail. It's like a light bulb went off!!!

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2008 : 10:43:06

I'm gonna' have to go with Stampeder on this one. My boat is pretty basic, and yet is more completely rigged than any other boat I have owned. (four) The first two boats I owned did not have a boom vang. (Long Island Sound and Puerto Rico). Thinking back, I'm not even sure that the first one had adjustable jib blocks. Surely it did, I just don't remember. The third (Lake Pontchartrain, LA) did not at first, but I added one. Transferred that to the fourth and sold the boat the way it came. Fourth boat was mid boom sheeting (Lake Pontchartrain and Puerto Rico) and though I had the vang, I rarely used it. One of the "old salts" in New Orleans convinced me to only use the vang as a preventer in light to moderate air. No problem, because I have always rigged a preventer with a long piece of fairly heavy line taken forward from the end of the boom to pass around a foredeck cleat and then lead back to the cockpit. A little more trouble to rig, but you can throw it off easily from the cockpit. Since I sailed for so long without a vang or any other goodies (adjustable backstay, adjustable outhaul,cunningham, flattening reef, etc.) I rarely think to use them now. It's like learning all over again. I guess what I am saying is that--excepting racing--there is a lot to be said for keeping it simple and learning to use what you got. I too have been considering leading the halyards back to the cockpit but I dunno. I'm kind of used to going to the mast. (could have been more succinct, I guess, but it's cold outside and I'm bored)

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2008 : 12:21:15

There is no such thing as racing equipment, only control equipment, it only becomes racing grade if you pick one brand over another because it weighs less.
Are there some controls that are optional? Sure. An adjustable backstay is optional as long as you tune your rig for maximum wind and accept the poor performance in anything less. Cunningham? Sure. As long as you always reef before it would have come into play. In other words can you get by with a minimalist philosophy? Sure. But I will sail more days and have more options open to me while I do.

Edited by - on

John Bixby
Navigator

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118 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2008 : 14:57:04

YOU DID GREAT. Had a similar experience on the bay. Last two times out we had it handed to us. First time we got caught in a storm that wasn't predicted on NOAA that day and
had a time getting into the Clear Lake channel. Ripped our
main out and had to motor back. Second trip lost motor
about 3/4 mile outside the Kemah bridge. Had to return under sail to The Wharf on the west end of Clear Lake.
I like you was rather disenchanted with the Kemah area after that but remember we have a lot of great sailing
in our area. A day trip to Double Bayou is always fun as is
a trip to Galveston. You can anchor up behind Fish Village near the GYC marina for a great overnight. Fishermans Wharf has dockage if you drop in for lunch or dinner. Also,
Stingaree and Steve's landing has dockage for dinners also.
You can overnight at Stingaree and Steve's.
You did great, I can understand your frustration but remember we have one of the greatest places to sail around.
Keep in mind where the Pelican Island cut, The Houston Ship
chanel and the Texas City ship chanel intersect is one of the busiest places in the country. Watch out for the barges and tankers and you'll be fine. Enjoy watching the dolphins
alongside while in the ship channel. We had one about 2feet off our starboard aft the other day. It was really
neat.
John on Ms Achsa

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4312 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2008 : 20:46:43

2Far2Drive,

Where do you live? I'm 45 minute's from my boat.

I'll be going out tomorrow, if your plans have changed and you can make let me know.

Edited by - on

2far2drive
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2008 : 22:20:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 2Far2Drive,

Where do you live? I'm 45 minute's from my boat.

I'll be going out tomorrow, if your plans have changed and you can make let me know.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I emailed you , but if you see this first and to anyone else in the Kemah/Clear Lake area, I will be headed down around 9am tomarrow. I have to get my outboard working before any sailing can take place. Im going to change the plugs and hold my breath.... PLZZZZZZZZZZZ let that fix it!!!!!

Edited by - on

gbeardjr
Navigator

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USA
101 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2008 : 19:24:19

Hey 2 Far2Drive, I pulled my boat into your Marina this afternoon to see if you were around. Today was an awesome day to be on the water but didn't see ya at your boat. I assume it was yours has a wood anchor on the hatch boards? and no TX numbers? Give me a shout the next time your going to be at your boat I'm only a few minutes away. THis is my e-mail address gbeardjr at yahoo.com same for you Gary would love to compare boats. E-Mails on here don't seem to go through. If you have a myspace account I have lots of sailing pics up http://www.myspace.com/gbeardjr

Garnett

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