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Broach on a run?

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ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2008 : 11:22:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 I recall what Steve recalls--that the guy was flying a mizzen sail only in following seas and wind--it looked absolutely crazy, regardless of whether I was safe and warm.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> He was mizzen and something else, not sure if he got off balance or lost the other sail; rounded and rolled, lost his rig. See [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14409&SearchTerms=following"]here[/url] for our previous discussion and [url="http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27412"]here[/url] for an excruciating discussion elsewhere.

Edited by - ilnadi on 02/12/2008 11:31:24

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2008 : 13:58:32

Nope. In that previous thread, Steve said this:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">There's a link to a telephone interview with Ken on his website in which he describes what happened. He said he was running under mizzen alone in 45 knot winds and 25 foot seas, with the wind over the starboard quarter. A gust caused the stern of the boat to slue around, presenting its beam to the following waves, which rolled over the boat, stripping it of both masts and the rudder.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's one way to learn. My sympathy was and is very limited.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/12/2008 13:58:57

ilnadi
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452 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2008 : 07:44:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 My sympathy was and is very limited.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">no argument here, also I think his story changed as people criticised the previous version.

Now a question. I have found myself sheeting the main in while maneuvering downwind to at least shorten the swing on any accidental gybe while I am distracted. Is this asking for a round-up if a gust hits?

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2008 : 08:23:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ilnadi
 I have found myself sheeting the main in while maneuvering downwind to at least shorten the swing on any accidental gybe while I am distracted. Is this asking for a round-up if a gust hits?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think sheeting in the main while going downwind will probably make you more susceptible to an accidental gybe since now the wind has a better opportunity to catch the back of the main sail.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2008 : 09:22:24

...but it should reduce the tendency to slew (sp?) around because (1) there's less power, and (2) there's less leverage out to the side of the boat. My feeling is if you sheet partway in and put the jib on the other wing, the main is depowered and funnels air to the jib, which gives you that nice front-wheel-drive effect. If the wind direction is fluky (usually also meaning lighter), then ease the main, set a preventer, or head up a little. Either way, pay close attention downwind. If you are likely to be distracted, go to a broad reach.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/13/2008 09:23:46

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2008 : 09:24:13

... and keep your masthead light on at night so you can see the Windex!!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2008 : 11:57:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ilnadiNow a question. I have found myself sheeting the main in while maneuvering downwind to at least shorten the swing on any accidental gybe while I am distracted. Is this asking for a round-up if a gust hits?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The best answer I can give is, don't get distracted while sailing downwind. An accidental gybe is a serious hazard, and, when you're sailing downwind in strong winds, it's no time to be carrying on a casual conversation, or thinking about other things. Put all other concerns aside and concentrate on the task at hand.

If a strong gust could cause you to round up, I can't think of much that you can do to prevent it. You just have to ride it out and hope for the best. If a strong gust could cause you to round up, it's because you're carrying too much sail area. The only good way to avoid it is to reduce sail area early, when the wind first begins to build. If you wait too long, as racers do frequently, you just have to hang on and get the sail area down as soon as you can.

I don't let the boom out all the way to the stays when sailing downwind. I usually do the same as Dave, and sheet it in just enough so that the wind striking the mainsail flows off it's luff and spills into the pocket of the jib. That way, when the wind strikes the mainsail, the mainsail extracts some of it's power to drive the boat, and then, when it pours into the jib, the jib extracts more power from it, to drive the boat. Also, the wind that spills off the mainsail helps keep the jib full and driving, so that the jib isn't so likely to collapse and re-fill, even if it's not poled out. (If the jib starts to collapse and refill, trim the jib aft a little more. What causes the jib to collapse is that the jib is receiving such a large volume of air that the air starts to pour over the leech of the jib. If you overfill a waterglass with water, the excess water flows over the rim of the glass and down it's side. The same thing happens to your jib. When the overflow of air spills over the leech of the sail, that flow of air attaches itself to the other side of the jib, and it backwinds the leech of the jib, and causes the jib to collapse. By trimming the jib further aft, it diverts the flow of air so that instead of flowing off the leech, it flows off the luff of the jib. By trimming the jib a little further aft, you can sail wing-n-wing, without a pole, fairly effectively in moderate to strong winds, and the jib won't collapse very often.}

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2008 : 11:57:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">... and keep your masthead light on at night so you can see the Windex!!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmmm... that makes you a power boat under the rules.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/13/2008 11:58:45

ilnadi
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452 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2008 : 12:08:38

By distraction I did not really mean taking my mind off the sailing. It's more here I am trying to clear markers or enter channels and not even sure which tack I'll end up on on the other side of the obstacle. I always figured sheeted in, the main has little power and no place to go. This thread got me thinking if I over-gybe, I'll keep going.

Now, my high-ish wind is probably quite a bit lower than some of y'all, I am talking 15knts, not 27.

Edited by - on

ilnadi
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452 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2008 : 12:12:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">... and keep your masthead light on at night so you can see the Windex!!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmmm... that makes you a power boat under the rules.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think he was referring to [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16917"]this[/url] thread.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2008 : 12:14:53

Then yes, I'd say sheet pretty tight and do your best to anticipate a jibe--you still have to worry about decapitation from the mainsheet. (15 is a little high for that, IMHO.) Better yet, drop the main and sail in under the jib. In 15 knots, you'll move just about as fast, the jib almost never surprises you, and whatever does happen won't endanger passengers or the rig.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2008 : 12:25:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ilnadi
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">... and keep your masthead light on at night so you can see the Windex!!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmmm... that makes you a power boat under the rules.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think he was referring to [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16917"]this[/url] thread.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'm just pointing out that if you have a white light another boat can see along with your red or green running light, then the other boat should consider you to be a powerboat or a sailboat under power (same thing). That's the point of your steaming light, to be used in conjunction with your sternlight. The anchor light is an all-around, which in combination with running lights, indicates power, meaning you give way as a powerboat. (If you have a tri-color on the masthead, in the absense of the steaming light, it shows you're a sailboat.)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/13/2008 12:27:45

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2008 : 14:01:17

Love ya Dave...but
Leave your mast head light on so you can see the Windex.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2008 : 11:47:55

Got another idea. Keep a flashlight handy and occasionally shine it on your sails. Then there is no mistaking you for a boat under power!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2008 : 11:57:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Frank Hopper
 Love ya Dave...but
Leave your mast head light on so you can see the Windex.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Love ya back, Frank... You're on an inland lake, so never mind.

Edited by - on

JohnP
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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2008 : 14:11:52

It may be too hard to generalize, since the C25/C250/Capri25 behaves differently with big seas and wind and with only big wind. The risk of rounding up with the danger of a broach will be greater in big waves or swell than with chop on a smaller body of water.

The skipper must understand how the boat responds, and minimize the risk of catastrophic failures.

We were running downwind at night crossing the sea lane east of Prudence Island in the Narragansett Bay in my friend's C25 when the lights of a giant "Christmas Tree" (tug boat with 3 vertical white lights) approached from a few miles away. We didn't have radar and couldn't tell the exact direction of the tug and its barge in the distance, but it was traveling at high speed and we needed to carefully maintain our course to get out of its way. That night the waves were of no consequence - maybe 2-3 feet, and it was pretty easy to keep from rounding up. In retrospect, I recall that we didn't have a GPS or binoculars, and were in more danger we should have been under the circumstances. Knowing either our position precisely or the tug's course precisely would have helped. Nowadays I have a GPS and nice little binoculars to help me know what's going on around.

--- edited to correct misstatements and faulty memories.

Edited by - JohnP on 02/16/2008 09:06:41

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2008 : 17:47:07

If my Admiral see's this video that's the end of my sailing career and future retirement dreams.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 02/15/2008 17:53:13

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