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Can't decide which Catalina

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SCnewbie
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Initially Posted - 02/18/2008 : 22:36:49

My wife and I are looking at a Catalina 25 SK. We both enjoy sailing and we liked the amount of room on it. The price is pretty low as well. However, there is going to be some work making it nicer (both looking and smelling.) From first looking it over using the litle self appraisal guide on this site, it seems in pretty good shape. We figure maybe replace the cushions but aren't sure what else would be needed. Interior paint possibly? How much would that add? The trailer is going to need some work as well.

I mention all this because we also really like the C250. It would cost us about 10K more intially to get a newer C250 that is pretty much in the condition we would like it. So in your opinions, would you go old C25 for around 7K or 10 year old C250 for 17K???

S/V Cornbread
1995 C250WB #161
Charleston SC

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3468 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2008 : 22:55:15

There are always improvement projects to consider no matter what boat you buy. I guess the important thing is to separate out the expensive important things to accomplish from other nice to have things. Then perhaps you can determine about how much you will be investing into the boat for the first year or two.

Some big ticket items:

1) Condition of the sails - original ? Will you be considering replacing them anytime soon ?
2) Is the motor reliable/How old is it ?
3) Condition of the bottom - Any major blisters/damage to keel/hull ?
4) Condition of the bilge - Heavily discolored ? Bolts/Studs - Are they clean and shiny or corroded looking ? Any signs of water...such as the discoloration in the bilge area ?
5) Any musty/mildew smell in the cabin ?
6) Rudder pintles/mounting - Are they loose where joined to the transom or secure ?
7) Shrouds/Stays are hard to tell condition but if the strands are intact and where they enter the fittings seems to be clear of corrosion (though hard to spot with the naked eye), then may be okay. But a number of people start changing out the stays after 10-15 yrs or so. My '89 stil has the original stays and I will probably put off the replacement for another couple of years or so.
8) Lights all work - especially those up the mast ?

Anyway...the above are some of the big ticket items.

As an example of costs: In 2005 when I bought my '89, I bought a new motor and a new outboard motor bracket. Installed a solar panel and controller.
2006 - Rewired mast and cabin wiring including addition of a new 8 circuit breaker switch panel. Installed fans. Also had bottom painted - multi-year paint.
2007 - New sails
The above probably represents $7000+ for improvements/maintenance during 2 1/2 years of use.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 06:36:40

A big issue is, how long do you intend to keep this boat? Are you likely to keep it for a long time, or do you think you might lose interest in sailing and sell it, or might you want to upgrade to a bigger boat? If you might only keep it for a couple of years, then you should go for the boat that has depreciated as far as it probably will, as long as it doesn't significantly deteriorate in condition. That would be the C25. If you plan to keep it for awhile, then you should buy a newer boat that will provide more years of good service with less maintenance over the long term. That would probably be the C250.

Edited by - on

SCnewbie
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Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 08:00:55

Thanks, those were both the kind of replies I was hoping for. In response, the C25 sails are pretty nice. The main is a year old. The jib on roller furling is quite a bit older but seems usable for a while(several years.) The motor is a 2003 model 4 stroke 9.9 Hp. It seems pretty good. The bottom looks surprisingly good. The boat was in the water for several years prior to a few months ago. It needs a new coat of bottom paint but I was planning on that anyway. The bilge looked ok. It has had some water in it before but not recently as far as I could tell. there is a bit of staining. I didn't see the bolts or didn't note their condition. The cabin has a strong musty odor. It doesn't seeem to be a midlew smell. I figured it was from the cushions which are original (or at least look it.) The cushions under the companionway steps were damp. The rudder pintles and gudgeons all looked good and secure. I agree about checking schrouds but from what I could see, they were in good shape and didn't look too old. not sure about the lighst I didn't check that. I am an electrician so I don't have aproblem if I have to pull some new cable or rewire anything ( especially if I can take the mast down to do it.)

All in all, my wife and I thought the boat was a solid hull. The trailer is rusted but so is any painted trailer in a salt water environment. The trailer for my San Juan 21 is in much worse shape. We plan to keep this boat for a while. I already know I love sailing and the wife loves drinking a beer while out on the water. I figure we will have the boat for around 8 to 10 years until we can move up to a larger boat. That is a good point regarding keeping the boat for a while and buying newer. That may swing us around to the 250. If anyone has been on both, are there advantages to one model over the other? I know if we got a WB 250 I could probably pull it much easier. Other than that, i definately like the open transom on the 250.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 08:07:30

I recently went through the same decision. I think that Steve and Larry have covered the major points. I might add taking a ggod looking at the keel raising and lowering mechanism since you're talking about a swing keel. Also, since you're looking at a swinger, do you really have sufficient tow/launch vehicle? That needs to be factored into the cost if you're thinking of a trailer/sailer.

Don Casey wrote a good book called "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" It's probably worth the $15.

I made my decision to buy a C250 because, after an honest look at the amount of maintenance/repair I REALLY would do, I realized that the newer 250 was the right choice for me.

You'll see a lot of beautiful C25's on this site. To get and keep them to that condition, their owners have both done a lot of work and spent a lot of money. Parts for the older boat aren't cheap. (Nothing is!) At $70 -$100/hour, marina charges add up quickly. Even if you do the work yourself, how much is your time worth? For many, the maintenance of the boat is as much a part of their sailing life as is hoisting the main and catching the wind. That gives them pleasure. Good for them. But, unless you really enjoy the tinkering/fixing/rebuilding involved in an older vessel, buy the newest one you can afford.

One more thing, Steve brought up the idea of a transitional boat. If you think you might "pass thru" this boat in a few years, look bigger NOW. You can learn to sail a C30 as readily as you can a C25.

Edited by - John Russell on 02/19/2008 08:09:45

ClamBeach
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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 08:31:27

>"Interior paint possibly? How much would that add?"

A relatively small amount of money plus a bit of elbow grease usually makes these old boats shine again.
A good cleaning with 'bathroom cleaners' will probably make things sparkle and get rid of the musty smell... as long as you don't forget cleaning the bilges and storage compartments.

I happen to enjoy working on boats and view it as a pleasurable way to get acquainted with the vessel. I also take pride in the results of restoring a boat to 'bristol' condition. Your mileage may vary on that aspect of boat ownership and might be a major consideration in your purchase decision.

As you've probably noted the two designs have a completely different 'look and feel'. The C25 has a traditional interior with areas somewhat divided by function: sleeping, head, and dining/cooking. The 250 has the modern 'open floor plan'. Folks here have vigorously debated the merits of each design without much success other than admitting some people like apples and some like oranges.

When it comes to sailing characteristics, the C25 is very well mannered and makes an excellent trainer. If you're competent at sailing one you can step up to a bigger boat without having a lot of surprises. One thing having an older boat... you will wince a lot less at the occasional 'hard arrival' in the slip.

The C250 has some minor handling quirks in a breeze, especially in the early rudder configurations. Having a late model or upgraded rudder on a C250 is desirable. Someone here will probably contribute with details of the different generation rudders that are available for that model. This is something to check on before a purchase decision.

Having a trailer with these boats is an important consideration and the trailer itself is a fair portion of the value of the package. Make sure you get a good understanding of what needs to be done to make and keep them safe and reliable. As with the boat itself, having both the aptitude and attitude to do your own work makes a big difference in your costs and enjoyment.

Another thought is to look for a late model C25 wing keel... many people regard them as the 'ultimate' boat in the mid 20' trailerable sailboat class.

Edited by - on

SCnewbie
Navigator

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166 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 09:04:17

Thanks John,
I don't have a good tow vehicle but I have access to a frends and figured it would be a nce in the winter out and once in the spring back in kind of thing. I like the trailer not because i envision us trailer sailing ( at least not in the immediate future) but I like that should a hurricane threaten, or when I need to do some work, I can put it on the trailer and only pay $30 a month for storage vice what all the yards charge to put a bot on stands. For me, the fun isn't in working on the boat and I do value my time highly. That said, I also value money and am willing to do work to get a nice boat for lesser money. My wife seems partial to buying a newer boat. that will probably be the direction we go.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 09:43:15

One of the most important criteria for many of us is head room. The headroom hierarchy is:
89 Catalina 25
77-88 Catalina 25
250 WK
250 WB

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 10:04:41

I should have said that I like the look and feel of the C25 more than my C250. It just looks more traditional and has a lot more charm. That said, the need for less "restorative maintenance" really drove the decision for me.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 10:42:49

I agree with most of what has been said have, but the swinger will sail to weather better and more ballast deeper makes for a more stable ride. The wing is a trailer launch compromise for the fin keel, it is not like the racer wings. It draws about the same as a swinger with the keel up but the center of mass is a few inches deeper. I just had my sk/tr keel faired and all hardware replaced plus a lift bolt upgrade to the tune of $2000. It would have been less than $500 to do it myself, but I had time constraints. A thorough cleaning of the interior with Pinesol and bleach, spraying the stripped cushion with bleach and drying in the sun, and a pint of teak oil made the interior very nice. Since is a s/k, be sure that it has had zincs on the keel near the pivot if it has been in salt water - I also recommend zincs near the lift bolt.

The pop-top swinger is a very nice, traditional boat, but the closed or open floor plan is personal preference. They are two very different boats, so sail them both, balance the benefits, and choose the one that makes you happy. They both have faults that you can forgive and benefits that you can love.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 14:29:10

Sounds like you're already leaning, but I'll add a few more 2-cent comments...

People sail and like the C-25 swinger in fresh and salt water, but it adds some serious maintenance issues in salt. Catalina themselves recommended against leaving a swinger in salt water (as opposed to trailer-sailing). Some calamities (sunken boats) have led a number of people to convert their swings to wings. A midpoint in your decision $pectrum would be the '89-90 C-25 Wing, which is just as trailerable, has more headroom, and is to my mind the nicest 25-footer Catalina ever made, even if not the absolute best performer to windward.

I'd probably recommend against painting the interior--try a good rub-down first--first with diluted bleach or bathroom cleaner, and then with cleaner-wax. It should look and smell fine. ...except for the cushions. Figure $1500-$2000 to have new ones made either by Catalina, Catalina Direct, or a local auto/boat upholstery shop (which we used).

If you go with the C-25, I strongly recommend a professional survey--it's the best $350 or so you'll spend on the boat. It could turn up a show-stopper, it likely will show you things you should put at the top of your list to attend to, and it might give you some ammunition to work the price down a little. In any case, you'll learn a lot, and many insurance companies require a survey for an older boat.

The C-250 WB is lighter and a little more tender, but safe and competent. Its fiberglass centerboard does not present the issues and risks of the 1500# iron keel on the C-25 swinger. All that said, if you're going in and out once per season, why not a C-250 wing? You can get her lifted in and out and save your trailer from being soaked in salt water. The 250WK has 5" more headroom than the WB and, according to what I've heard, is initially a little more stable. If you're slipping or mooring the boat, not using the trailer except for storage, and don't have depth issues, the WK has both maintenance and comfort advantages.

Nuff said--and probably barely worth what you paid for it...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/19/2008 14:30:12

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 14:41:53

I have not owned a C25 so I cannot speak to that model. Clearly, their owners love them and they have proven themselves to be a well built and versatile boat. We own a 2000 C250 Wing. Here is what I like about it:

-enclosed head
-large aft berth
-roomy interior
-transom cutout for swim ladder makes getting in and out of dinghy easy
-transom cutout for outboard requires no motor lift
-wing keel requires no maintenance
-wing version adds 9" headroom
-C250 poptop is very easy to set up
-wheel steering option (I love it)

We have day sailed and gone on a two week cruise. I find the boat sails very nicely in a variety of conditions. It is not a racer. I think of it as our mini-cruiser.

The C250 has a modern look which I like. Others prefer the clasic look of the C25.

Some people love wheel steering and others hate it. I love it. Ask yourself, have you ever seen Johnny Depp (Captain Jack Sparrow) with a tiller?

Finally, if my wife said she prefered a new boat I would be filling out the paperwork by now.

Edited by - on

SCnewbie
Navigator

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Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 17:05:39

Word Randy but she actually said newer boat...not new boat. :)

You guys these are great comments. I was looking at the swinger primarily because there is one for sale here in town at the same yard as my San Juan. The Wing Keel does sound very useful. How much headroom does it have? In the manual here on the site is says 4'8" with the pop top down. Is that the WB model?

Edited by - on

andy
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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 19:03:21

I think I'd try to find a clean well maintained '89 C25 wing keel. Hopefully one that's lived its life in fresh water. One of our club members bought one last year that looks brand new.

I previously owned a '95 C250 water ballast. Nice boat and trailerable, but I like my '87 C25 wing much more. IMHO the '89 is the pick of the litter.
I'd stay away from an older swing keel boat that had been in salt without restoring the cable before I launched it the first time.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 19:15:19

According to Catalina web site:

Headroom for WB is 4'8" and 6'4" with poptop up.
Headroom for WK is 5'5" and 7'1" with poptop up.

They describe the WK as having 5" more headroom which makes no sense according to their measurements.

Yes, you are right about Captain Jack Sparrow and that tiller. Of course that boat was sinking!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 19:29:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andy
 ...I previously owned a '95 C250 water ballast. Nice boat and trailerable, but I like my '87 C25 wing much more...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">What should we call that: zero-foot-itis? In any case, interesting upgrade! (...and I concur... and will go into hiding for a bit.)

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 19:57:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Ask yourself, have you ever seen Johnny Depp (Captain Jack Sparrow) with a tiller?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

He also wears a lot of makeup and in three epic movies has not once got the girl.

Lots of great advice. I'd be very suspicious of any sign of water in the bilge. These are dry boats and should not have ANY water in the bilge. In four years (one year moored on rainy Vancouver Island) I have not had water in the bilge except for the time a guest pulled the sink drain hose off the thru hull.
Both boats are a good choice.
After a season of boat ownership - The Outboard and the Sails will become more important 'shouldas'.
In 8-10 years you are more likely to get your money back from a C25...but if you can afford the $17K boat - and the Admiral thinks its a good idea - I'd be inclined to spend the dough, and expect that in 8-10 years it's going to devalue.
The mistake I made when buying my boat is not taking it for a test sail. Fortunately, I ended up with an excellent boat and got a better deal than I negotiated for.
Welcome to the group and good luck.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 20:13:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 [quote]...I'd be very suspicious of any sign of water in the bilge. These are dry boats and should not have ANY water in the bilge...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Some are, some aren't... Usually it's a trickle of rain water from places like the window frames, cockpit scuppers, etc.--fixable, but not threats, and easy to verify in salt water.

Edited by - on

stampeder
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Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 22:51:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Some are, some aren't<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'd buy the one that aren't.
If I had one that are, I'd fix it and not have any water in the bilge.

I was stupid enough to buy a 22' Larson Stinkpotter many years ago. It had a rubber gasket that seperated the bilge and the OMC motor from the ocean. There was water in the bilge when I bought this boat and the seller was clever enough to say 'that's what bilge pumps are for'

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2008 : 23:03:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 ...I was stupid enough to buy a 22' Larson Stinkpotter many years ago. It had a rubber gasket that seperated the bilge and the OMC motor from the ocean...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's why I got the Honda Outboard rather than the Volvo sterndrive on Sarge. Hate that big hole below the waterline with a rubber bellows and gasket!

Edited by - on

SCnewbie
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166 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2008 : 00:12:38

Well searching I have found a lot of nice looking C25's that seem in much better shape for only a few thousand more than the one here in town was. I also saw a few C250s including one in town I want to go look at. I have always bought boats locally the only exception being a power boat I bought from family who lived in the keys. I am not sure it is worth the price to drive or fly out to look for a 11K boat and then haul it back as well. The 250's that are near me are the WB which I don't know if the wife would like due to headroom although mostly, I think she hates my San Juan because the boom almost hit her during an accidental gybe one day. They really are fun to sail but they are alot more like big dingys.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2008 : 08:37:45

You mentioned the pop top, but did not say how tall you are. I find the pop top critical since I'm over 6' tall, and at anchor or under sail in light breezes the cabin is roomy, bright and airy.

How you use the boat - daysailing, overnighters, coastal cruising, etc. determines what kind of boat equipment you would need eventually for that. That could figure in your decision, too.

And I am surprised no one has suggested yet that you get the boat inspected professionally. You will learn a lot about your boat if you do, and maybe save yourself buying a lemon with major damage somewhere you weren't aware of.

Whichever boat you purchase, Happy Sailing!!!

Edited by - on

John Russell
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USA
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Response Posted - 02/20/2008 : 08:45:47

JohnP,

Dave did:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 ...

If you go with the C-25, I strongly recommend a professional survey--it's the best $350 or so you'll spend on the boat. It could turn up a show-stopper, it likely will show you things you should put at the top of your list to attend to, and it might give you some ammunition to work the price down a little. In any case, you'll learn a lot, and many insurance companies require a survey for an older boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

JohnP is right to bring it up again. It's well worth the cost to find the big issues that you might not recognize.

Edited by - on

SCnewbie
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166 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2008 : 08:59:31

We will get a survey before we purchase once we find one we like. The pop top is important to me as well. I am 6'2 and the wife is 5'9.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2008 : 11:35:08

I love the pop top and use the pop top canvas almost everyweekend when we gunkhole.

Not sure of the amount of extra room you get on a 250 - but on the C25 it opens the boat up considerably and makes it a very comfortable place to enjoy the times when you need to be inside.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2008 : 12:03:03

Your wife will stand straight in the '89-90 C-25, and almost in the C-250 WK... You won't. But you sail in the cockpit and sleep or sit in the cabin, and the C-25 pop-top is great (after you install Catalina Direct's gas strut kit or do your pilates...) The boom won't be a problem except possibly on the C-25 Tall Rig (which has the boom a foot lower than the standard). I predict that once you get to like this type of boat, a 28-30+footer is in your future.

Are you checking Yachtworld.com (brokered boats only) and Boattrader.com (brokers and private)? Have fun in your quest!

Edited by - on

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