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Can't decide which Catalina

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2008 : 14:27:33

Couple of things.

We drove 2,000 miles to pick up our C250 Wing. Great road trip.

Second, my experience with a C22 and its poptop (same as C25) is that the C250 poptop is much easier to raise. We ended up not using the 22's poptpop because of the hassle but we use ours now all the time. If you go the C25 route, and they are fine boats, I would suggest you buy the poptop "piston" kit from CatalinaDirect.

Edited by - on

SCnewbie
Navigator

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166 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2008 : 14:45:13

Well, we went and looked at a 250 WB today. My wife liked it a lot. There is a wing keel nearby we may also check out though it doesn't have a trailer. I have to say, i really like the open cabin of the 250. As my wife said regarding the headroom, under sail why are we hanging out in the cabin anyway? It has the pop top with canvas. It has an old ugly looking 2stroke outboard That I would probably want to replace in the not to distand future. All in all, I think I may have gotten the go ahead to spend the money on the newer boat. This was a 95 with brand new sails. It needs its bottom painted but the trailer is in good shape. All in all, I think we will end up with a 250. I don'tknow if we will buy the one I looked at today but I think that is our route. I think I like the WB since it has the kick up rudder and I could nose it right up to the beach. That open transom is very nice on the 250's as well. How much do you figure a survey on a 25 foot boat will run? The boat is on the trailer so it won't have to be hauled to do it.

If I haven't said it yet, I sure do appreciate all the help you guys are giving a total stranger. The catalina community sure seems like a nice group.

Edited by - on

SCnewbie
Navigator

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166 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2008 : 14:47:10

One other thing, does anyone know the approximate weight of a 250WB on a galvanized double axle trailer? I tried searching but couldn't find it.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2008 : 15:17:35

Make sure you look at the wing. Many things are different, different mainsheet system, genoa tracks and probably genoa size. Early boats could have tall rigs. You can always buy a kick-up rudder and the wink does not draw much.

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2008 : 15:51:46

With nothing important to add to the conversation, something someone said reminding me of an interesting fact, and one that many people may not know about regarding wheel and tiller steering...

Did you know that the Santa Maria (the ship Columbus sailed when he "discovered" America) had tiller steering? And the tiller was below decks and operated by I think four men who couldn't see where they were going. I don't specifically remember, but I'm guessing they responded to orders shouted down from the deck above.

There's a replica of the Santa Maria in my hometown (Go Bucks!) where I learned all this fascinating information.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2008 : 16:38:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">One other thing, does anyone know the approximate weight of a 250WB on a galvanized double axle trailer? I tried searching but couldn't find it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dry weight is 2400 LBs and the trailer weighs approx 1300 LBs.
This does not include OB or beer.
The water ballast tank takes on about 1200LBs of water.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2008 : 16:41:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Did you know that the Santa Maria (the ship Columbus sailed when he "discovered" America) had tiller steering? And the tiller was below decks and operated by I think four men who couldn't see where they were going. I don't specifically remember, but I'm guessing they responded to orders shouted down from the deck above.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I was looking at a replica model of the Santa Maria a couple years ago - and I commented that it was not a very accurate 'replica' because it didn't have any means of controlling the rudder.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2008 : 17:06:04

All good sailboats have tillers! There! I said it!

Edited by - John Russell on 02/20/2008 17:06:24

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2008 : 17:46:04

Did you know that the Santa Maria (the ship Columbus sailed when he "discovered" America) had tiller steering?

Which would explain how he missed his target destination so badly.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2008 : 22:13:23

Nah--he was on the right course! Just ran into a shoal on the way.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2008 : 07:56:01

Whatever you get, and whatever configuration it is in, I would strongly suggest buying one with a trailer. Sooner or later (sooner for me) you will wish you had one. A trailer may add $1500 - $2000 to the price of the boat. For me, the cost of hiring someone to haul the boat home, and one season's storage will come to more than that. And I get to look forward to doing it every year.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2008 : 11:06:55

Actually, wheels should be used where there is a need to have a mechanical advantage due to helm loads. Our relatively small boats produce very little, if any.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2008 : 14:11:49

I like the wheel because it provides a platform for mounting things that improve the cruising experience. I have the GPS chartplotter right there in front of me where it is easily seen. I have a fold down cockpit table, binocular holders and drink holders right there. Ditto for a handheld VHF. When we tack there is no tiller to sweep across the cockpit and I stay seated comfortably centered at the transom. When the day is done the wheel is removed to allow easy access to the swim ladder and dink.

Had a tiller, now have a wheel, wouldn't trade back. To each his own.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2008 : 14:31:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 I like the wheel because it provides a platform for mounting things that improve the cruising experience. I have the GPS chartplotter right there in front of me where it is easily seen. I have a fold down cockpit table, binocular holders and drink holders right there. Ditto for a handheld VHF. When we tack there is no tiller to sweep across the cockpit and I stay seated comfortably centered at the transom. When the day is done the wheel is removed to allow easy access to the swim ladder and dink.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It is somewhat ironic how you like your wheel for everything except its main purpose...steering, which is why I like a tiller.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2008 : 17:32:41

The wheel steers just fine - plus it does that other stuff too.

Edited by - on

CatFan
Deckhand

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4 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2008 : 15:47:29

Need some help folks .... I see people are recommending a 89 or 90 wing keel, as an ideal Cat 25. What about the 88 wing keel version?
What are the differences? I know the front hatch has been changed to a clear version, and a cupboard is missing in the galley, but what else is differnet? Also what is the actual headromm in the 88 WK vs an 89 or 90WK?

I intend to buy an 88, 89, or 90 very soon.

Thanks,
Catalina Fan

Edited by - on

andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2008 : 17:22:02

You'll be a happy camper...er sailor. I hope you find a nice one. Don't be afraid of an '86 or '87 if you find a bristol one with lots of goodies. The differences are minor.

Sorry Randy...our boats are too small for a wheel. (I learned to sail in a dinghy with no motor)

Edited by - andy on 02/22/2008 17:27:51

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2008 : 17:45:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by CatFan
 Need some help folks .... I see people are recommending a 89 or 90 wing keel, as an ideal Cat 25. What about the 88 wing keel version?
What are the differences? I know the front hatch has been changed to a clear version, and a cupboard is missing in the galley, but what else is differnet? Also what is the actual headromm in the 88 WK vs an 89 or 90WK?

I intend to buy an 88, 89, or 90 very soon.

Thanks,
Catalina Fan
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It all depends on how and where you plan to use the boat. A wing keel is fine if you intend to sail the boat in skinny waters, or if you intend to cruise the boat, or if you intend to launch it from a trailer frequently, but if water depth is not a significant concern, and if you want a boat that performs better, then the fin keel is the better choice. In fresh water, a swing keel performs better than a wing, and is not so much of a maintenance problem. In salt water, the swinger is more of a maintenance concern.

I sailed on a fairly deep fresh water lake, and liked to race, and liked a boat to perform well, and rarely trailered it, and wouldn't have been happy with a wing keel. There's no one version of the C25 that fits everyone's needs or preferences. That's why Catalina made different versions.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 02/22/2008 17:52:21

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2008 : 18:29:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by CatFan
 Need some help folks .... I see people are recommending a 89 or 90 wing keel, as an ideal Cat 25. What about the 88 wing keel version?
What are the differences? I know the front hatch has been changed to a clear version, and a cupboard is missing in the galley, but what else is differnet? Also what is the actual headromm in the 88 WK vs an 89 or 90WK?

I intend to buy an 88, 89, or 90 very soon.

Thanks,
Catalina Fan
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hi SC,
There are several major upgrades that were made over the 87-89 boats. The 88 got some of them. They got the new side decks and the new windows. They did not get the flat floor with two extra inches of headroom. The flat floor is the 800 pound gorilla, having had a earlier model I know the significance of the flat floor and the added headroom, both are very important. Spend some time looking at the '89 pages in my sig.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2008 : 09:06:45

Quote, "I should have said that I like the look and feel of the C25 more than my C250. It just looks more traditional and has a lot more charm. That said, the need for less "restorative maintenance" really drove the decision for me."

We had an 82 FK with the traditional interior and I would not have traded it for a newer 250 even if you gave me $10K and a 250. As the years went by, Catalina started cutting back on things like TEAK and BULKHEADS. '82 was I believe the last year that they were hand laid up. A much thicker hull than the 250's that oil can at boat shows when you push on them. If you can see the water line through your hull in the sunlight, you have a very poorly built boat in my opinion.

We paid $6,400 in 2000 and sold it for $9,750 this past spring. The new owners then had her hauled from Massachusetts to Jersey to the tune of $1,200 or more... Worth every penny in my opinion. They really don't make them like that anymore. New cushions and carpet from catalina and some elbow grease will set you back $1,500... You will wind up with a better boat.

Enclosed head sounds good until you realize that the C25 has one too, it's just two accordian doors. That means that if needed, you can actually have some privacy up in the v-berth. My wife and i cruised extensively on our C25 and we pushed its design limits every so often. We were comfortable and reasonably safe. Knowing what we know now, we probably should not have been in certain situations with our C25, but my wife and I both agree that we most certainly would not have ventured as far on a 250... Or a hunter or a bendy-Toy...

Go to the recalls database http://www.uscgboating.org/recalls/recalls_database.htm and enter in Hunter to see what I mean. Catalina is a better boat builder as they only have a couple of current recalls posted.... But they build boats to a price point and they often cut corners that even on our "old school" C25 became apparent pretty quickly under use. No chocks, undersized pintles, poorly installed stepped mast plate, etc... Don't get me wrong, a fine vessel for some situations as I am sure the 250 is as well, but for the same money as a used 250 you could actually buy a used Pearson Triton or something a bit more substantial. New is overrated. We live on a 1973 C&C that has circumnavigated twice and I had more issues with my C25 which was built in 1982.

I'm hoping that when I get too old to sail this beast or the one that will undoubtedly follow, that I can buy an OLD C25 still. Hold onto yours for about 20 years and I will come knocking...

Sten

DPO C25 #3220 "Zephyr", SR, FK
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - St. Augustine FL, heading south to the islands in a week after the canvas guy finishes! Yippee!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2008 : 10:45:24

Having had both the '82 and now an '89 I have to say the '82 was not the high point of the Catalina 25.

Long timers on this board do not doubt my familiarity with the '82 as documented by hundreds of photos of my boat's refit. The '89 was made with better materials, to a higher standard of fit, finish and tolerances, and in a more tasteful contemporary style. The '89 is nicer by any and every criteria. The '82 was the model where Catalina began to bring the C-25 from an old thinking design of the 70s into a competent modern competitor in the market place, but it was just the beginning of that evolution. Unfortunately by the late 80s the market had shifted to water ballast, (erroneously as proven by the failure of MacGreggors and the death of WB Hunters). By the time Catalina finally completed the maturation of the C-25 it was too expensive for its size and too heavy to trailer, and died. I am so lucky to own what I own I can't begin to put it in writing. I am thrilled to be part of the larger C-25 community and blessed to be part of the 89'ers.

SC Newbie is going to buy a 250. I almost bought a 250WK back in '03 but missed it by an hour and bought the '82 instead. (Turk has that boat now.)

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2008 : 11:02:54

Redviking I respectfully disagree. I would suggest we each stick to providing the specs of boats we actually own. The C250 does not oil can and you can not see through the hull. Don't be ridiculous. I appreciate that some love the more traditional look of the C25 while others prefer the more modern look of the C250. As noted on other threads here is what I like about our C250:

Enclosed head (enclosed all by itself)
Roomy interior
Very large aft berth
Transom cutout for swim ladder and easy dink entry
Transom cutout for outboard so no spring loaded bracket needed
Large cockpit
Full roof for easy access to foredeck
Easy to open poptop
Wheel option (I know, I know....)

I like C25's as well. Our boat search started with looking for one. In the end I felt that the C250 offered more of the cruising features that we wanted and less maintenance (we had a 1986 C22). For the extra $ the C250 was right for us. For others the C25 is the right choice.

Some like the water ballast, some like a fixed fin, some like a swing, some like the wing. These are all good choices based on the needs of the individuals. I, for one, think this forum is the absolutely wrong place to badmouth other's boats. They are all good choices.

Both the C25 and the C250 are fine boats. Neither is meant for going out in the ocean. They, and many other boats in their price range, are really remarkably similar (yes, including Hunters). We cruise for weeks at at time in the Puget Sound and love our mini-cruiser. I'm glad you like your C25. It, too, is a fine boat.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 02/23/2008 11:19:23

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2008 : 11:36:42

To each their own. My point is that it is possible to justify buying an older boat. An older C25 boat in this case. Perceived value is all about where you are standing. If a younger boat is your thing, cool... And Frank, I did not know that - thanks. And as far as canning goes, just try pushing into a hull at a boat show say aft about 1/3 way from the stern. Maybe your boat doesn't do this Randy, but the 06/07's did when I pushed on them. I also have sailed on a '03 250 and was able to see the waterline from inside the boat. That's not how my C25 looked from inside - but I'm not sure what they did when.

Sten

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2008 : 11:53:08

I also disagree on the "quality of layup" between older and newer C-25s... Of course you can see light through the hull at the waterline--that's because there's no white gelcoat there, the fiberglass and resin are essentially clear (on all boats), and the C-25 bootstripe is molded in and opaque. If the older hull was thicker, it'd be heavier, and I've never heard that it is. My '85 was rock-solid and never showed any blistering or delamination (except some pin-head sized things in the boot stripe).

On oil-canning... I was at a boat show where there were C-250s and Hunter 260s on stands. The Catalina dealer walked me over to the Hunter display and told me to try it--the H-260 hull oil-canned almost wherever I pushed on it. We walked back to the C-250--it was solid as a rock. Night and day.

I agree with Frank--my 85 was (still is) nice, the 88 is nicer, the 89-90 is nicest,... If I were buying now, my first design criterion would be anything with the cockpit fuel locker (meaning '82 and newer, as I vaguely recall). Jim Baumgart's descriptions of the relative performance of his older SR/FK versus Gary's newer TR/WK tells the story: each has its advantages but overall there isn't that much difference. (You can search for those threads.)

The C-250 shouldn't be measured against any of the C-25s--it's a different product for an evolving market.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2008 : 12:22:30

If you push hard enough on any small boat at the right place, the hull will flex to some extent. Small boats aren't designed and built to sail around the world. They're designed to sail around the lake or the bay. If you expect the rigidity of a big, blue water boat, you're expecting too much. Boat builders can't afford to build small boats like that, and you can't afford to buy them. If you pushed on the hull of my C25 at the right place it would flex, most notably, the transom.

I've sailed a number of C250s and never saw the waterline through the hull, from inside the boat, but I suppose it's possible. Fiberglass is translucent. I've been inside some big boats and seen bright daylight shine through parts of the hull. I'm thinking in particular of a Tartan 37, and it didn't have a hole in the hull. The light poured through the area around the chainplate, where there was no hull liner. Other than cosmetics, the reason why they put gel coat on the boat is so that people on the docks can't see what you're doing inside your boat.

Edited by - on

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