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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

remote outboard steering,,

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quilombo
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USA
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Initially Posted - 03/09/2008 : 10:44:31

hi all again,, hope you guys dont mind all my questions, as I am inside now its a little cold out there I was outside doing some work on my boat and just needed a break,,
another question,
does anyone out there have remote steering on there catalina , I am putting one in for the outboard, I bought a fully remote engine, and I like the idea of not being all the way back to come into port, but rather up front by the cabin entry, Im putting helm on the starboard side of the entry , (dont know if thats the correct terminology but Im working on it, I am keeping the tiller steering because many have told me its the only way to go, so the wheel will only be for the outboard,,
thoughts???

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 11:28:11

Guglielmo,

Before putting in a wheel exclusively for outboard control, you probably should put in some seat time aboard your sailboat to determine exactly what you need. Since your experience is mainly in the powerboat area, you'll soon discover that your sailboat behaves a bit differently around the docks in that you don't need the outboard as you would for a powerboat. In a powerboat, low speed directional stability is provided mainly by the drivetrain, without it, a powerboat is somewhat of a raft, but with a sailboat, the rudder is what steers the boat, not the outboard/engine. This is especially true at higher speeds while under power where you'll not even use the outboard for steerage.

Additionally, along with steering differences, as a powerboater, you'll have to unlearn a few powerboater manuevers, such as the power stop when coming into the dock. When bringing in a 3 or 4 thousand pound powerboat into the slip, it is quite easy to bring it to a stop with a momentary burst of reverse from the 200hp behemoth on the transom. It is quite another thing to power stop a 6,000 lb boat designed to glide effortlessly with an 8hp kicker. Count me among those who've learned the hard way, the principles of inertia.

After you've gained some experience, you may find, like me, that you won't even use your outboard as you enter the slip. For me, this has made docking so much easier since it removes another item/complication from the equation. Docking without the assistance of the outboard will also make you more confident of your ability to bring in your boat when, inevitably, your engine decides not to cooperate. This has happen to me around a half dozen times, twice just last season, and to me its no big deal or cause for concern because I do basically do this every time I come in now.

Why do you think you need to steer the outboard?

Edited by - dlucier on 03/09/2008 11:31:02

quilombo
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Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 11:36:06

alot of interesting points dlucier,, and point taken,
but last year I used the boat at the end of the season and moving back and forth around the marina I did steer it around with the previous outboard that I had. There were many times where I did not hoist the sails and just went accross the river, and those times I had the rudder locked in a straight position , and used the outboard in much the same way I have used it many times on my power boat,
the problem I had was being a short guy, (5 6, ) it was very hard for me to see the front of the boat, so I figured I would put a helm in at the mid point so I can kinda be in the center of things,,
I plan on doing alot more sailig this year and not using the outboard at all,
Im sure when I become more experienced I will try docking without anything,, but for now, I thought It would be more relaxing to just use the wheel , being that I have the remote engine,,
thanks for the input, I understand

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 12:03:57

Guglielmo... As Don says, things are a bit different. Next time out, try centering the outboard and steering only with the tiller--it's much easier and just about as responsive. You can trim the outboard direction such that the boat travels in a straight line with no pressure either way on the tiller.

About the only time most of us steer with the outboard (and simultaneously with the rudder) is right at the slip if we have to pivot the boat in very close quarters. Some people have rigged a linkage between the rudder and the outboard so both turn with the tiller--you can find more by search on "soft link" on the C-250 forum, and probably in the Tech Tips section--but I never felt the need for that.

One thing that has surprised some people when using the rudder... To turn as sharply as possible, don't push the tiller past about 45 degrees--past that angle it becomes more of a brake than a rudder. Another axiom of sailing: Never approach a dock any faster than you're willing to hit it.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 12:48:51

Guglielmo,

Let me echo what Don and Dave have said. I'll add that I'm 5'4" tall. When I approach the dock, I'm standing in the cockpit holding on to the tiller behind my back. I can see just fine. My motor is amidships.

Take some time to learn your boat before you make too many modifications. A sailboat is significantly different than a powerboat as Don has pointed out. Once you stop thinking of your vessel as a slow powerboat, you'll come to better understand how she works.

I agree with Don about learning to sail into your dock. In fact, the course where I first learned to sail had Catalinas that did not have motors. The instructors would say that you're not a real sailor if you need a motor. I'm not sure I agree with that but, I do agree that learning to handle the boat around the dock is a huge part of learning to sail your boat.

One final thought. If this was a real good idea, I'd imagine you'd see a lot more of them at the marinas. I've never heard of anyone doing this particular modification. I also don't think that you will ever re-capture the cost of this mod if you should decide to sell.

Edited by - on

quilombo
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Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 13:28:36

actually John, there are at least 7 sailboats at my marina that have this,, thats were I got the idea, Ill foward some photos of it when Im done, I cant imagine why i couldnt have both and still practice coming in powerless,, ??
it cost me an addtional 169.00 which I dont see as a great expense

Edited by - on

stampeder
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Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 13:31:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">the problem I had was being a short guy, (5 6, ) it was very hard for me to see the front of the boat<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Your boat was built for a guy 5'6"
Mine fits me perfectly

Edited by - on

quilombo
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Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 13:36:06

boy,,,,,,,,, you guys are a rough crowd,,,lol,
appreciate the advise , will take it under consideration,
and thanks didnt know cat 25's were built for 5 foot six guys,, thats always good news,,,lol

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 13:54:48

Again, its your boat to adapt to your needs. However, a rudder lashed centerline really induces a lot of drag when trying to turn. I would suggest sailing for a season before making major modifications. I set the motor and as I approach my slip very slowly, slip it into neutral and steer with the tiller. I can quickly engage the motor and use it with the tiller should something unexpected happen.

I can see no point in sailing through the marina, the risk to others is very real. I can handle a boat and do it if need be, but I choose not to. A floating mark in open water or an open dock are better places to practice close maneuvering than around a few million dollars worth of other peoples boats. An errant puff swirling around a building can change your heading very quickly. A boat or jet ski coming from behind a larger boat in a slip can be quite surprising. I believe caution and safety are more important than flashing my skill as a sailor.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 13:57:35

PS

I have been known to stand on the seat (the tiller pivots up) for an enhanced view.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 14:29:56

Entering motorless is something to try a little further to the right on your learning curve--to avoid insurance claims and angry dockmates. None of us started out as a "real sailor." BTW, it's a bit more complicated if you're approaching down-wind--much easier to control with the wind forward of the beam. When I did it downwind, I did it under jib alone... but that's a later chapter for you.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 03/09/2008 : 16:01:19

You're right, $169 is hardly anything on these boats. That's for remote steering, throttle and shift? I think I'm missing something here.

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quilombo
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301 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2008 : 12:25:21

no , I bought the outboard a mercury in like new condition, it came with remote throttle, I bought the teleflex steering set up at boaters world and it was 169

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/10/2008 : 13:20:13

Sorry, and please take this as an attempt to help... but I really think you're misinterpreting what those seven other sailboats have. What you're describing doesn't make sense on a sailboat. You steer a sailboat this size with its rudder, not with the outboard--even under power. (Sometimes the outboard is linked to the rudder, but the rudder is still the primary steering device.) Don't do this until you've learned more about your boat and sailing--in fact, I suggest you return whatever this Teleflex component is. You're rushing down the wrong path.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2008 : 15:10:19

For being able to see, I might suggest a couple of the square, throwable type life preservers strategically placed under your behind. Each of them makes you 3" taller. You could be 6' tall in no time!

Those things are a lot cheaper than $169 and the mod is much quicker, and adjustable!

A second thought - a tiller extension would also give you the ability to steer from amidships, but you would have to get used to steering "backwards" (push left to go right). I have a hard time with them and need more practice.

Are you uncomfortable standing in the cockpit without anything to lean against, and think that the support of the companionway will improve your confidence? Is this a visibility, confidence, or maneuverability issue? I'm not challenging you, just trying to get to the root of the problem so we can be of more help.

I tend to agree with the others that this mod (although it is interesting) may be misguided. I am trying to think of where it would be appropriate, but even the handicapped sailing folks I know use wheel or tiller linked to their rudder, so I can't see it as a mobility aid. I am looking forward to seeing your photos in case I have misunderstood your idea.

Edited by - Prospector on 03/10/2008 15:19:55

quilombo
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Response Posted - 03/10/2008 : 16:39:56

wow,,, I guess I better explain what Im doing. I suppose I was a little vague in my explanation and Ill try to shed some light on what Im setting up here. I understand those of you who are the "sailing pureists" how ever I am most cettainly not trying to take anything at all away from the sailboats definition by trying to create a hybrid or anything, but , I think I should explain, even though Im a novice in sailing, I want you all to know Im not a complete idiot,,,lol I do have some sort of sense of order, and what should be
I bought the swing keel because I like the idea of keeping my boat in the marina rather than mooring it out and having to go back and forth with a dingy,
but my marina has a very very very low tide situation and at times coming into port I have no choice but to pull up my rudder and find another way to get in
one of the ways is that I modified my rudder by adding a hinge so i can swing it up out of the water and use "my outboard " to get to my dock which at low tide, barely gives me any water at all, I do know what Im doing as far as construction etc,,,so I figured I will make a good thing just a little better by adding a wheel to my 9.9 mercury, I dont see the harm,
when a sailboat is under power with no rudder it is a powered boat isnt it??
and trust me , when Im out sailing the motor is off and Ill be on the tiller, the wheel will just be there for an ornament of sorts, and it will be a sailboat,
I also modified the rudder so It can be left on the back of the boat and swing it up on its hinge and use the outboard without hitting it
as I mentioned, when I get it done, Ill try to post some pics here so you can see what Im talking about
I appreciate your imputs and I have learned alot here,
I just didnt want you all to think I was out of my mind or anything,,lol,,
thanks for the help

Edited by - on

Even Chance
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Response Posted - 03/10/2008 : 17:47:18

The rudder is only an inch or two deeper draft than the swing keel in the up position. When I was sailing in very shallow water, I appreciated the extra draft, because it warned me when I was about to run aground. Having a hinged rudder increases, not decreases, the likelihood of running aground.

I don't understand the appeal of a wheel to control the outboard on a boat like ours. I understand the appeal of remote throttle and shift, although, with practice and an outboard with handier controls, this is much less of an issue.

Unless you plan to keep your boat until you die, you might want to think about how any modification you make affects the appeal of your boat to the next buyer. I certainly would look askance at a boat so modified, and, from the responses in this thread, I'm not the only one.

I agree with the multiple suggestions to spend a year sailing your boat before you make such a significant modification.

Then again, it's your boat.

Edited by - on

quilombo
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Response Posted - 03/10/2008 : 18:00:30

not on my boat it isnt, I guess I have a non original rudder,
that explains it, my rudder goes, way down, thats why I had to modify, would you happen to have the length of the factory rudder
thanks

Edited by - on

quilombo
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Response Posted - 03/10/2008 : 18:05:38

yes it is my boat,, and as far as it affecting its value, I really dont see how a cable going through a .5 inch hold affects the value,, have you seen some of the messes out there? so basically using the outboard is ok, as long as its pointing straight and I use my rudder, , even if it extends way past my keel in the up position, is that about right???

Edited by - on

Even Chance
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Response Posted - 03/10/2008 : 20:45:53

From the Catalina Direct website:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Our Blue Water Catalina 25 rudder is a massively strong rudder for offshore or other heavy weather use. It is extra long at 82" with a chord length of 17". This compares to 76" X 12" for our standard polyethylene rudder. This extra length keeps the rudder in the water even in heavy following or quartering seas. The greater chord length affords more control at high rudder loads. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

More to the point, the SK draws 32" keel up. My guess is that the draft of my rudder is 33 - 34 inches.

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Dave5041
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Response Posted - 03/10/2008 : 21:01:46

I don't think you have a non standard rudder. My rudder is about as deep as my lowered swing keel. In some unpleasant moments I have raised the kick up rudder along with the keel to slowly move off an uncharted shoal. At very low speeds I can maneuver forward without difficulty, but the loads in reverse could easily break the rudder. To manage outboard steering, you will probably find it very unsatisfactory if the rudder is in the water - these boats are sluggish enough with the keel up.

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quilombo
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Response Posted - 03/11/2008 : 06:19:12

yes it may be the same lenght with the keel down, but Brooke states its the same lenghth with the keel up which is not the case

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 03/11/2008 : 07:47:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 My rudder is about as deep as my lowered swing keel.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If your rudder is as deep as your lowered swing keel, then it must be 2 feet longer than my balanced rudder. Yikes!

Edited by - dlucier on 03/11/2008 10:57:41

tinob
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Response Posted - 03/11/2008 : 09:48:07

The rudder that came with my boat, a 1983 vintage catalina 25, measures 36 inches below water level with just me on board, and measured with a metal tape while standing at the transom while the boat is in the water. I would imagine that the amount of material stored on board will effect that measurement.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT, # 3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 03/11/2008 : 10:42:20

I didn't measure, that is why I said about. When I think about it, It really isn't as deep as the lowered keel, but it is significantly deeper than the raised keel.

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quilombo
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Response Posted - 03/11/2008 : 11:26:13

yes, thats correct its a little bit longer with the keel DOWN not up as stated by Brooke in a couple of answers prior to this one

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