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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Proposal for a FAQ

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/30/2008 : 20:42:16

I read the new rules for posting and I like them, especially the rules about respectful posting. I have a suggestion I'd like you all to consider.

Periodically someone will post to the forum asking whether he/she should get a Catalina 25, 250 or Capri 25. My observation is that it can get ugly after that with some posts that are even outright derogatory towards one or more of our boats.

I believe we are all rightfully proud of our boats - regardless of model. I further believe it is just wrong to criticize any boat that is represented on this forum. We all come here for support and comradeship, not to get our boats dissed.

So, I propose that each boat type, in its own forum, develop a description of the pros and cons of that boat. Include strengths and weaknesses, descriptions of the various options such as keels, wheels, etc, descriptions of changes over the years, etc.

Then we post all three descriptions in an FAQ. The next time some newbie pops the question we just point to the FAQ.

What do you think?

We cannot direct the winds but we can adjust our sails.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2008 : 21:27:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 
So, I propose that each boat type, in its own forum, develop a description of the pros and cons of that boat. Include strengths and weaknesses, descriptions of the various options such as keels, wheels, etc, descriptions of changes over the years, etc.

What do you think?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I dont think we need to lists pros and cons as I think this has already been discussed. But agree with not putting one model down for another. But I gotta say, this has been one of the best forums and rarely gets out of hand.
Steve A

Edited by - on

Oksky
1st Mate

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Canada
40 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2008 : 22:14:14

As a new Catalina 25 owner here is what I found. Once I found the forum page this is where I started my search for information on the ideal 25. The forums were of great help however, everyone has something on there boat that is the best thing to come along since sailing was invented. I find that very cool but it's hard for someone to draw any conclusions when your dealing with so many different opinions. Sooooo, I finally found the article by Larry Charlot on tips for buying a Catalina. So what did I do? I looked around until I found what he might consider the perfect Catalina for him.
Cessna Pilots Association has a similar deal when someone is looking to buy a used Cessna 182. It gives a history of the model by years and the improvements made, good or bad, in the various years. 20 years after purchasing my first 182 I still read it over wen I'm looking for a new plane. Long winded I know.
So here is my conclusion. If there were three separate stories/tips sheets made up. One for each model of the 25 and posted here. And make then EASY to find, like a link on the main page the says Buying tips or whatever. I still have trouble remembering where Larry Charlots tips are. Just my two cents.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2008 : 00:03:29

I myself found the last article on the catalina 25 vs. The 250 a hoot. I don't think there has ever been a thread on this site make me LOL like that one did. Most of the time you have to weed thru everyones personal thoughts and take the facts. First the poster was looking for a new boat, my first thoughts were that the 25 was noteben an option. The thread was placed in the general topics, so the thread should have been moved. We all love our boats, all of them display different traits.

Even if the FAQ sheets are made there will always be these kind of threads. We as a group support three different boats, each model has different options like standard rig vs tall, wing keel, fixed, or swing. There are just too many options.

So here is my breakdown for the Capri 25

Fast, Fun, and unforgetable the capri25 is a 25 ft sailboat that sails and handles just like a dingy. The Capri handles very well on all points of sail, and has the ability of plaining downwind. The hull has a low freeboard which makes the boat a wet ride. The interior can sleep 4 with good storage spaces. This boat would be rated as a racer/ cruiser.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2008 : 06:42:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 I further believe it is just wrong to criticize any boat that is represented on this forum. We all come here for support and comradeship, not to get our boats dissed.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I don't agree. We don't come here to express our mutual admiration for our boats. We come here because we want accurate, truthful, helpful information about our boats, and the unusually friendly camaraderie of this forum is a bonus. You don't have to lurk here for very long to realize that there are so many people who participate in this forum that someone is likely to have a good answer to almost any question you can ask about sailing or racing or maintaining one of our boats.

Some newbies come here thinking we rely on Catalina Yachts for financial support. If they think we're just shills for the manufacturer, we'll lose credibility. If people ask for information, and we only give them the positives about our boats, and none of the negatives, we'll be denying them valuable information. If someone on the forum disses one of our boats, there are plenty of well-informed people who own that class of boat who will come to it's defense. The end result of such repartee is that the person gets an accurate, balanced view of the boat.

Most of the people who come here looking for information about our boats are grown-ups. If they get a sense that we only see our boats through rose-colored glasses, they'll catch on pretty quickly, and go somewhere else for truthful, useful information. I've seen many people ask our opinions, and get balanced information about the positives and negatives of our boats, and they came back later, reporting excitedly that they bought one and thanking the forum members for the helpful information.

The only suggestion I would make is that, when we write a post, our members should keep in mind that we're all friends here, and we all love our boats like we love our children. We know they have warts and flaws, but if you must talk about them, you don't have to be brutal. With a little diplomacy, you can provide good information in a matter-of-fact manner without offending others.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2008 : 07:03:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 [quote]Originally posted by Nautiduck
 The only suggestion I would make is that, when we write a post, our members should keep in mind that we're all friends here, and we all love our boats like we love our children. We know they have warts and flaws, but if you must talk about them, you don't have to be brutal. With a little diplomacy, you can provide good information in a matter-of-fact manner without offending others.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well said Steve.

Paul

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2008 : 08:15:15

Randy,

I admire your intention, but the process of generating and then updating these documents would be tedious and complex with little of the feedback that makes the Forum so lively. For guidance on purchase, maintenance, and operation there are all these files available.

In the best case scenario, 3 committees would need to be set up with volunteers to produce these "Buying Tips". Their mission would be to survey the Catalina 25/250/Capri 25 community and reflect the consensus. If you and 2 others would like to try, then this could work. Maybe you'd like to give it a shot?

The best parts of the Forum, IMHO, are the varied opinions and experiences that constantly shift with the winds of time.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2008 : 08:19:08

As always, Steve's reply is spot on.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 So, I propose that each boat type, in its own forum, develop a description of the pros and cons of that boat. Include strengths and weaknesses,...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Some time ago, it was suggested that maybe the association should post warnings about certain aspects of some boats. The idea was poo-poo'd quickly, and rightfully so.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2008 : 08:26:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JohnP
 In the best case scenario, 3 committees would need to be set up with volunteers to produce these "Buying Tips". Their mission would be to survey the Catalina 25/250/Capri 25 community and reflect the consensus.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

John,

The only problem with producing "Buying Tips" is that some boats will end up as winners and some will end up as losers. Read a certain article in the Tech Tips and you'll see what I mean.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2008 : 08:56:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
The only problem with producing "Buying Tips" is that some boats will end up as winners and some will end up as losers. Read a certain article in the Tech Tips and you'll see what I mean.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Don,

I agree.

Even after I toured a neighboring C-42 a week ago, I still don't consider my good old C-25 a loser. My boat is just right for my situation.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2008 : 09:25:19

I too agree that "consensus" is not the way to go. Periodically I poke Don in the eye with a sharp stick because I am not fond of the early 25s, truth is they are great boats or the 25 never would have been successful in the market place. The up side is Don will retort with an explanation of the "value" of the early boats, which may be exactly what the reader is needing to hear.
When I espouse my personal preferences and opinions I do it because there is a chance they will "ring true" to the reader, that is my hope, and if they merely go "thud" then that is good too because the reader will have processed my opinion and decided my criteria does not match their's. I see that process as a good thing.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2008 : 09:35:43

I agree with Randy, it would not be a comparison of boats, just pros and cons of a particular model. A paragraph or two of on the TR/SR, WK/FK/SK, WB, and Traditional/Dinette interior models, and a summary table of significant changes affecting all models by year. Since all but the 250 are gone, updating wouldn't be an issue and the general information on changes over the years could be mined from existing documents. I've had the benefit (?) of too many decades of sailing, but I think some newbies would appreciate some basic, general information. I would be willing to write up TR/SK for review.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2008 : 09:29:09

When I bought Labarca, I relied on Larry's 'Self Appraising a Catalina 25' from the Technical Tips along with knowledge gleaned from lurking here and asking questions.

The only criticism of a movable Keeled boat I encountered while in the buying process was right here. The only criticism of the older C25s was right here.

That said, a FAQ is a good idea as long as it addresses what the Newbie wants and needs. The Forum is for opinions and the Technical Tips section is for 'just the FAQs Ma'am'
There is also 'Shopping for a Catalina 25' in the Technical Tips, even though it is laden with opinions, it is a good source of info. What I did not see, is similar info on the 250s and Capris. So maybe you 250 and Capri guys should put together a similar buyer's guide/self appraisal guide.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2008 : 11:06:44

I presently drive a Honda Element back and forth to the boat. Previously I had a 1984 Ford Mini van that I used for the same purpose. The Ford was a very comfortable, well-equipped, serviceable vehicle, and it got good fuel economy for it's vintage, but some of the parts don't work as well as when it was new. The Honda is newer, has a better sound system, gets better mileage, has more interior volume, it's easier to remove the seats for hauling, and everything works. Both vehicles will serve my basic needs, but the Honda is newer and has the benefit of engineering and technological advances.

The same is true of the different vintages of Catalina 25. Both will serve your needs well, but some have the advantage of engineering and technological advances. The old C25s can sail as well as the new ones. They have the same shape and overall specifications, but the newer ones have some nice features. Likewise, there's nothing wrong with a swing keel boat. It was a functional way to enable the boat to sail in skinny waters. It needs a bit more careful maintenance than a wing keel, but it actually sails better and faster than the wing keel. Some people put a lot of importance on the flat floor of the newer boat, but the bottom line is that most folks still can't stand upright in it, and the only reason I would need a flat floor is if I was going to do ballroom dancing in it, and that isn't going to happen, so the flat floor just doesn't seem to be a big thing.

I don't have a problem with posting a general description of the differences and characteristics of the boats, but care has to be taken to ensure that it isn't slanted towards one design or another, as can happen if the writer is the owner of one particular model. Nothwithstanding the advances of engineering and technology, some of the older boats do some things better than the new boats.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2008 : 12:06:13

Maybe the closest thing to an unbiased opinion would be something from Practical Sailor.

Catalina 250

"A relatively recent entry in the class of water-ballasted trailer sailers, the Catalina 250 is an adequate overnighter best suited to avid trailer sailors.
The Catalina 250 is one of a group of relatively lightweight, shallow-draft trailerable cruising boats that appeared in the mid-1990s, utilizing water ballast to provide stability. These boats notably the C-250, the Hunter 26, and the MacGregor 26 all are of very modern design, are relatively inexpensive, and feature workmanship and materials of generally serviceable but by no means superior quality. Their sailing qualities and accommodation plans make them suitable for daysailing and casual overnighting, rather than for serious cruising. Such boats tend to attract mainly first-time buyers, the budget-conscious, and those who give a high priority to the mobility and self-storage that goes with trailerability. We believe that most experienced…"

Anybody happen to have the rest of the article.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2008 : 12:31:35

Actually, Don, the paragraph refers to the group of boats they listed and makes pretty generic comments. Unfortunately their premise is, IMHO, flawed. I don't think anybody that has taken a serious look at a 250 would class it with a Mac except in the most general of terms. Besides, it's a pretty old article. "Relatively recent entry" was circa 1995. I guess that's "relatively" recent. They mention nothing of the wing keel which also dates the article.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2008 : 12:53:41

Here is another article (also old) from Sailing:

Perry Design Review: Catalina 250
Pocket Cruiser

by Bob Perry
Sailing

"Pocket cruisers have always appealed to me. The security of being self-reliant in the smallest package is a nice image. I remember at 14 years old "lofting," with my mother's yarn, a 14-foot pocket cruiser on the floor of our living room. Catalina is expert at small, affordable sailing packages, and this 25-footer is a good example of the breed's progression.

When I first looked at the drawings of this design I was struck by the forward position of the centerboard. Board position is a question of helm balance. With this boat carrying water ballast, the board is essentially unweighted, so positioning the board is done irrespective of weight and trim demands.

I think we have to leave it to Gerry Douglas and the rest of the design team at Catalina to get this right. I'd rather see the board aft. The high-aspect-ratio board and rudder should give this boat good speed to weather. The new board sweeps aft at 18 degrees. There is also a fixed-keel version in the works that will allow the cabin sole to drop down, giving a full 9 inches of additional headroom.

The ballast is 1,200 pounds of water carried in the bilge. There are 90 pounds of lead in the centerboard to overcome the buoyancy of the board. The advantage of the water ballast is that you can quickly reduce the weight of the boat down to 2,400 pounds for trailering. The negative side of water ballast is that the VCG will be rather high, and there is always that fear that someone will forget to fill the ballast tanks before hoisting sail.

The deck is carefully sculpted, with the cabintrunk extending almost to the rail. This is great for volume below, but it also means that you have to climb over the trunk to go forward. Small boats are like that. The large cockpit opens to a convenient swim step area to port.

Below, the 250 is handsomely detailed. You can sleep four on this boat. There is a reasonably sized head to port adjacent to an equally reasonable galley to starboard. The icebox is a cooler stowed below the counter. A pop-up dodger over the companionway is a great way to capture some useable headroom.

The rig is a pivoting masthead sloop with swept spreaders. When we include the ballast water with the dry displacement, the SA/D is 18.45.

Is it a good-looking boat? I think so. Given the volumetric demands, combined with trailering limits, the designers at Catalina have done a nice job keeping the profile low and the lines drawn out to avoid a stubby look. Catalina always seems to find its own look without leaning on Euro styling.

The conveniences of water ballast and trailerability make for a great weekender."

We have taken our C250 on multi-week cruises and had a great time. I believe the comments from Practical Sailor re the uses and the workmanship describe many boats in this class including the C25. The C25 and 250 are designed to be trailerable and affordable and they both fit their purpose just fine.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 04/01/2008 13:04:31

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