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Cate
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199 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/25/2008 : 20:16:31

Okay. I have been getting quotes from all over the place to replace my main and headsail.
I've got quotes for different sail areas and cloth weight.
My local lofts are North Sails and Neil Pride. They came in around the same price. $2100.
Scott and Sobstad came in about $300 less. Quantum was out of the park with a quote over $3000. Sobstad sail cloth is Challenge High Modulus Dacron. North Sails is 6oz 4800 Dacron.

I decided not to go with an off-the-shelf Catalina sail because I was told the quality is a lot less and won't last more than 2-3 years.

My head is kind of spinning at this point so I'm looking for advice from any of you old salts. (or young salts)

1983 C-25, Standard rig, swing keel

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2008 : 20:36:45

What are you looking for exactly?
I have a quote from Scott Sails for a new main at $788.00. I don't know much about sails but there sure is a big difference between what you're being quoted and what I'm being quoted.
I did ask for a run of the mill cruising sail.

Edited by - Happy D on 04/25/2008 20:37:26

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2008 : 21:10:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cate
 I decided not to go with an off-the-shelf Catalina sail because I was told the quality is a lot less and won't last more than 2-3 years. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I guess that depends on what you mean by "last". I'm still sailing my Catalina original equipment mainsail on my 1999. I would imagine it will last a couple more seasons. I don't race.

Talk to [url="http://www.nationalsail.com/"]National Sail[/url]. They sell Rolly Taskers made with Challenge Dacron. My new 135% cost $759.

Edited by - John Russell on 04/25/2008 21:13:56

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2008 : 21:52:07

Happy, I know Jim Scott personally, and he made my 135 genoa -- a very nice sail. He designs the sails, but they're made in China, like pretty much everything else these days.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1803 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2008 : 22:05:43

Well . . . for what it's worth . . . I can't believe that any sail from Ullman/Catalina/Rolly Tasker would only last 2-3 seasons unless you sail 365 days each year or abuse the sail. If you race, then the cloth weight and design will have an impact however, if you are doing basic coastal crusing with an occasional race, then the finer points of sail design are really not important. I would stick with Ullman or National (Rolly Tasker) and save the money. I have Ullman sails and they are very,very good -- excellent for the money. I have friends who are into serious racing and replace sails every season and still complain that even the most expensive sails only last half a season of racing. I choose to enjoy sailing and put any saved money into other needed equipment or add to sail inventory.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2008 : 22:24:33

I wouldn't discount off-the-shelf sails so readily thinking they would only last a few seasons. My headsail is a North Sail of unknown vintage, but it is still a great, well made sail, and probably off-the-shelf. If the off-the-shelf sails come from a well known manufacturer, say North Sails/Cruising Direct or the like, I'd imagine they're not selling junk.

It reminds me of a story one of my company vice presidents told me one time. He said he and a group of colleagues were in a very nice, high end restaurant and when the wait staff came over with the wine list, he said something like, "We don't need to see the wine list, just bring us two bottles of your least expensive red wine." After getting somewhat quizzical looks from the waiter and his colleagues, he looked at the waiter and said, "I would think that a fine establishment such as this, wouldn't dare serve a bad wine to its customers" to which the waiter said, "You are correct, sir".

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 06:34:03

Thanks for that info Brooke. I was under the impression that only Rolly Taskers were made off shore.
I hate to purchase from the Chinese so I guess that quote goes in the trash.
Dan

Edited by - on

Cate
Navigator

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199 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 07:36:11

It seems I may be falling victim to false info from sail salespeople.
Maybe you guys can help.
We have a standard rig. We are mostly day sailors, sailing in Barnegat Bay (Jersey shore). No racing. The afternoon winds frequently reach 15 knots with gust of 20 knots.

The main sail specs I am getting are:
Sail area- 136-140 sq. ft. top full batten, 2 partials, 1 reef point, insignia, boat numbers, cunningham, loose foot, aluminum head board

Headsail specs are for a 110% furling with sunbrella UV cover with:
Sail area- 169-176 sq. ft.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 08:39:17

Ullman Ventura makes the OEM Catalina sails for the West Coast and the off the shelf sails for Catalinadirect.com. My main is off the shelf from Catalinadirect.com, going on six years old and still superb. My 135 is a custom from Ullman Ventura and is spectacular. I am very picky and would get a lot of pleasure out of classier sails but realistically these have been one of the smartest buys I have made. Both my sails were under a grand.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 08:46:34

We replaced our main and genny on our C22 with sails from Catalina Direct and were very pleased with the result. In my opinion you cannot go wrong with them or Catalina.

BTW the original sails on our 8 year old C250 are still doing just fine.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 04/26/2008 08:46:53

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3494 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 08:46:40

Cate,

First of all, what are you presently using for a furling rig sail ? That would be your best guide as to how pleased you are with using that sized sail in the winds most prevalent in your area. THe 110 may be fine. For others, they may prefer the 135. My area oftentimes has 5-15mph. For me, it's a decision between a 135 & 150 and I went with the 150.

As far as quality of the sails, again this is a personal choice. The original sails with the boat are not made of the higher quality Dacron sailcloths and yet many have used the original sails for eons and have been happy with them. In my case, I went with a higher quality Dacron sailcloth from Quantum (Mack Sails is similar). It cost me a lot more to go this route but it also included custom sizing, they came down to take the measurements. Is that necessary ? No ! But the way I looked at it, I was not comparing apples to apples. Quantum was not selling me a sail much more costly than others for exactly what I was getting from another sailmaker. The extra cost was going with a highly respected sailmaker, High Aspect Sailcloth and the sailmaker was taking the measurements off the boat (and I am located about 1-1 1/2 hours away from him). Once again, this is all not necessary but if you go this route, then one should expect to pay for these attributes/services.

Mack Sails has the best write-ups regarding sailcloth matl and the differences. Most USA sails are made of Challenge matl and Challenge has 4 grades of Dacron. (North has their own proprietary matl and so it is hard to compare to all those sailmakers that use Challenge cloth. But North is the largest sailmaker in the country with a fine reputation. Quantum and Doyle I think are rated Numbers 2 & 3 in the country - If that even means anything to anyone.)

What you are hearing from most people is that they don't care what the sail is made out of, just that they are happy with the sail and it cost them gobs less money to buy that from sailmaker C or D. That is great ! Their sail is probably equal to or better than the original anyway. But there are technical differences. For those that really want to know the nitty gritty, Challenge has all their strength/stretch curves for Challenge Dacron Performance, High Modulus, High Aspect and Marblehead on the web. The numbers don't lie. If you apply a certain constant force to the sail, it is going to eventually stretch to some degree. Each of these fabrics stretch a different amount.

There are plenty of other ways to jack up the cost of sails into the stratosphere - You can get radial cut Dacron, you can go to laminates, etc. Most people who go daysailing or cruising buy Dacron sails and that's it. But these days they do not just offer one Dacron quality sail...Most get their sailcloth from Challenge and Challenge offers 4 grades of Dacron type matl. I would think that most people would at least want to know which one of those Dacron sailcloths you are getting for your money and then decide if it even makes a difference to you. Besides sailmaker hype, it rerally comes down to the cost of the sailcloth. Individual A, B, C & D all say they love their sails. A paid $600, B paid $700, C paid 800 D paid $1200. A, B & C do not know what the sailcloth matl is but they are happy with their sails. A's sail is really made out of Challenge Performance matl, B's and C's sails are made out of HIgh Modulus matl. D's sail is made out of High Aspect matl and the sailmaker is coming down to take the measurements. I would think that even the person that does not want to spend $1200+ for each sail would want to know what he is getting if he bought the same sail as A's or B's ??

You seem to be sailing in an area of fairly high constant winds. Depending on how much you do sail...if you get out 2 or more times a week, you may want to consider a sail made out of High Aspect Matl....if you do not mind spending the extra dough. If you are not turned off by tech data then I would at least advise you to review the Challenge Force/Strength curves to see the stretch the mfr mentions for each of his matls and then consider if High Aspect is for you (Mack and Quantum are two that primarily sell cruising sails out of this matl) or save the cost and go with what almost everyone that has commented on in this thread has gone with and have been happy with as well. Your money...your choice ! You will probably be happy either way you go. It is rare anyone complains about a sail anyway - Everyone seems happy with what they got !

Sails are a costly purchase for a boat. It's a big day for anyone when they get new sails. It is so important for a sailboat....it represents the "Sail" in Sailboat. How many have even ever looked at the Challenge website to know something about their "Sails" ? Probably 75% or more have sails made out of Challenge matl.

It's probably boring to most and considered not necessary. But for those wanting to take a look. Here is the Challenge website, followed by at least one of the Challenge Force/Strength curves to get you started, followed by the Mack Website which has a lot of good info on the quality of the fabric.
http://www.challengesailcloth.com/cloth.htm

To compare stretch values - Take a look at the table to the lower left of the curve. It indicates stretch for 50# force. Compare those stretch numbers to other grades of similar weight Dacron Fabric of Performance, High Modulus and High Aspect.

http://www.challengesailcloth.com/high_aspect/5_6.pdf
http://www.macksails.com/sailclth.htm

Edited by - OLarryR on 04/26/2008 09:00:12

Cate
Navigator

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199 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 09:30:57

Thanks to all who have responded. And a special thanks to LarryO for your detailed discussion of sail choices. We decided to go with a 110% head sail based on a discussion I had with the local North Sails guy who knows our bay and learned about our sailing style. Currently we have a 140% head sail that was cut down from a 150% and it is just too much sail for us. The North Sails guy said that having a big head sail was "old school" and that he that having a bigger main working with a smaller head sail was the trend. I appreciated this discussion because he could have sold me a larger sail for more money.

Our main sail is blown out and soft. Probably the original from 1983. Any new sail is going to make a big difference to us. Most lofts are giving us a 5-6 week turn around time for a custom sail, which is going to eat into our season a bit. I thinking it may make sense to get an off-the-shelf main (in stock if there are any) and wait for the custom head sail.
BUT if I'm going to have to wait anyway, I would like to make an informed decision about sail cloth material. In this case, I do think you get what you pay for.

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 13:29:27

Two years ago my wife got a new 110 from Cruising Direct as a birthday present. (ain't she sweet?) It is as good a sail as I could ask for. I chose a middle grade. I don't race, I avoid high winds when possible and do my best not to stress or stretch my toys. That sail will probably outlast me. (o.k., so I'm probably a little old) I think it was around $650.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 14:37:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cate
 We decided to go with a 110% head sail based on a discussion I had with the local North Sails guy who knows our bay and learned about our sailing style. Currently we have a 140% head sail that was cut down from a 150% and it is just too much sail for us. The North Sails guy said that having a big head sail was "old school" and that he that having a bigger main working with a smaller head sail was the trend. I appreciated this discussion because he could have sold me a larger sail for more money.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Wow Cate, that North guy is a mess. He has given you bad advise and I would probably never talk to him again, or require a complete explanation of why he would say something so incorrect to you.
The rig of a sailboat determines the distribution of power between the headsail and the main. Yes large headsails and small mains are old school compared to the new rig geometries which MOVED THE MAST FORWARD and result in large mains with non-overlapping headsails. You cannot MOVE YOUR MAST FORWARD, so yo must optimize the drive of your sailplan based on where your mast currently is located. Our boats were designed to be headsail driven, they have modest mains and a backstay which means a larger main is not an option. Many of us put a 135 on a furler so we have reasonable power when all out and less sail to furl so the reefed sail remains somewhat aerodynamic instead of becoming a large bag behind a huge roll of cloth. The idea that you can have a modern rig by buying a small sail is an unconscionable suggestion and simply leaves you underpowered.
As for Larry's fixation with sailcloth, god knows I have hangups like that too where I will spend unwarranted money on things just because I can't bear to own less than the best. Sailcloth fortunately does not do it for me so I am content with what I have. (I have bought special compound tires when everyone thought I was nuts. They were right but so was I.) So if you want to be like Larry there is a product out there that will get it done and if it floats your boat like it floats Larry's then do it. But if you do not know the hydrophilic index of your tire compounds and do not care what spindle speed of your hard drive is then I suggest you buy based on features like loose footed, full battened, etc. and not be concerned what cloth a reputable sailmaker is using. My two cents.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3494 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 15:04:42

I guess what gets me in these discussions is not that everyone should go out and buy an expensive sail. It's that what they buy, they don't know what it is only that they are happy with it. I guess, in the end, that is all that is important. Frank is also right, there are some things you get fixated on and you go to great lengths to check out all you can on it....and then there are other things, well, you just go and buy it. I do tend to get into the details with some things - Let's see: Did that with the sails and before that ...it was the cordless scrubber/polisher. I guess I probably could throw in the custom mattress for the extended bunk and then their was the checking out anchor lights. Okay....maybe it's time I just go down to West Marine and buy something that looks nice...and skip the details. maybe instead of that....I will just go sailing...then I get enjoyment and save some dough.

I guess it is also comical the way on some things you check out the details and on other things, you don't. I guess it's kind of like all the details checking out a replacement bulb as there have been several postings on bulb details: The amps, how many LEDs, how it illuminates versus........................ buying sails and the detailed information collected consists of about 5 "Happys" and 5 prices.

Edited by - OLarryR on 04/26/2008 15:12:53

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 15:23:57

I heartily agree with Frank - I spent a lot of time asking questions of all the companies that gave me quotes and of course I rec'd a lot of advice and guidance here.

Two things: 1)If you are in a hurry, you put yourself in peril of meeting a false deadline. You mentioned earlier that you are in a hurry, I believe you have take your time with this decision. 2) Does the seller of the sail know your boat. As Frank noted, the guy at North does not know your boat.

I bought my new 110 genoa from a guy who owns a C250 and sails at the same places I do. The decision to go with the 110 full hoist was based on frequent tacking in a high wind venues. Also, we have a 150 that is in good shape as well as a rarely used storm sail.
Last year I took my unknown vintage mainsail into North Sails, where they hoisted it onto an indoor mast and tested it in a wind machine - they told me they could repair it for $150 and that I should be able to get at least 2 more seasons out if it. When I need a main sail, I'm going back there.
They also repaired my 150 for $34 plus $6 in parts. They tested it and could find no faults with it.

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 16:40:10

I just tried out my new Ullman main sail. I have a tall rig cat 25 and I had Gary add a reef point so I could reef the main and sail with the bimini up. The sail is very nice in my opinion. Full batten and loose foot, it cost $900 with the added reef points plus shipping. The boat really sails better with it. Points much better than with the one I blew out a month ago.

Edited by - on

Cate
Navigator

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199 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 16:42:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 I
I bought my new 110 genoa from a guy who owns a C250 and sails at the same places I do. The decision to go with the 110 full hoist was based on frequent tacking in a high wind venues.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Where we sail we have to tack often, it's shallow, and winds really pick up in the afternoon. I had to furl the 140% many times, but the shape is ridiculous. If others have had good sailing with a 110% I'd prefer to go that way, but if 135% is what our boats really need then maybe I should go that route.

Edited by - on

Cate
Navigator

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199 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 16:50:28

[/quote]
Wow Cate, that North guy is a mess. He has given you bad advise and I would probably never talk to him again, or require a complete explanation of why he would say something so incorrect to you.
The rig of a sailboat determines the distribution of power between the headsail and the main. Yes large headsails and small mains are old school compared to the new rig geometries which MOVED THE MAST FORWARD and result in large mains with non-overlapping headsails. You cannot MOVE YOUR MAST FORWARD, so yo must optimize the drive of your sailplan based on where your mast currently is located. Our boats were designed to be headsail driven, they have modest mains and a backstay which means a larger main is not an option. Many of us put a 135 on a furler so we have reasonable power when all out and less sail to furl so the reefed sail remains somewhat aerodynamic instead of becoming a large bag behind a huge roll of cloth. The idea that you can have a modern rig by buying a small sail is an unconscionable suggestion and simply leaves you underpowered.
[/quote]

So can I furl a 135% and keep a good sail shape? THANK YOU for setting me straight on the mast position in relation to size of main sails. This forum has great people!
I'm thinking I should give Gary Swenson a call and see if I can get a good price on the Ullman. I have not told any sales people I am in a rush for sails so they haven't taken advantage of me that that way.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 17:03:41

This is what's great about our hobby/pastime! I may be content to trust that Catalina or Catalina Direct will build me a suitable sail. Someone else wants to know everything about sail materials and construction. It's all good, folks, and this site really does provide excellent information for the type of decision you end up making.

Frank, excellent point re mast and rigging.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 18:49:50

I just wanted to add that the Rolly Tasker storm jib we bought last year was made in Thailand, not China although I'm sure they make them there as well. FWIW it seems like it's a very nice sail, although we've only used it once.

I'm not in the market for new sails, at least not now. In fact I've got several head sails that I've never even looked at yet, much less hanked on. However, I've learned a lot reading this thread, and I'll be reading through it again just to absorb more of it.

Edited by - on

JohnP
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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 22:23:57

You may benefit from establishing a relationship with your local sail loft, North Sails in Manasquan, and you could discuss with them how they can help you over the 5-10 years you foresee using their products.

Edited by - JohnP on 04/26/2008 22:24:28

Cate
Navigator

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199 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2008 : 22:50:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JohnP
 You may benefit from establishing a relationship with your local sail loft, North Sails in Manasquan, and you could discuss with them how they can help you over the 5-10 years you foresee using their products.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That particular loft was where I got the apparently bad advice about a larger main and smaller headsail for my Catalina 25. (see replies above about North Sails guy, sail geometries) They have quoted me a price of $2188 for a main and 110% furling jib. One of the higher quotes. (see above) I also don't anticipate buying sail products over the next 5-10 years. I'm hoping my new sails last.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2008 : 05:30:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Happy D
 Thanks for that info Brooke. I was under the impression that only Rolly Taskers were made off shore.
I hate to purchase from the Chinese so I guess that quote goes in the trash.
Dan
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I have a hunch that many of the sails we're discussing -- as well as other equipment -- are made "off-shore." I was disappointed to learn Scott Sails were imported, but I suspect many of us would be shocked at the cost differential between US-made and offshore sails. It's a good question for all of us to ask as we research what we buy. Unless you see an actual sail loft and sails being stitched together on site, be wary.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3494 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2008 : 07:04:31

Brooke,

You are right about many of the sails made off-shore (outside the USA). This is actually true even with the custom-made sails.

For example, Quantum designs and makes their racing sails in the USA, however, their cruising sails are designed in the USA but made in their Capetown, South Africa facility. When I ordered my sails, the Quantum guy explained this all to me. After he takes the measurements, he goes back to his office, gets it onto their electronic form/sketch and then forwards it to their South Africa facility. They then manufacture the sail and ship it back. From the time they sent the forms, it took about a month to make and then ship back to their Annapolis office. I then had the choice of picking it up and pay Md tax or what we arranged instead was they shipped it because the shipping costs were cheaper than the tax.

Edited by - on

Cate
Navigator

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199 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2008 : 10:15:40

What is the main sail sq. footage? I have been getting quotes for main sail areas between 118 ft. to 146 ft. We have a standard rig.

Edited by - on

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