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Sail Buying Decisions

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2008 : 10:40:58

Cate, look in the manuals and brochures area in the left column for specs.
Brooke, wary of what?
I have no problem with off shore sails, how could I, every piece of fabric I have bought for years has come from off shore whether it be underwear or a suit. Times have changed.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2008 : 10:50:55

Cate, IMVHO, your North guy is steering you right. Yes, the "smaller headsail" trend in new boats is accompanied by a forward shift in the mast and higher-aspect mains (using larger roaches). But other sailors have opted down from 155s to 135s, and the 110 is a fairly large, well-balanced sail on the C-25, and is probably your best choice for your substantial sea breezes. No, a 135 rolled down to 100 will not have a great shape, and yes, you will likely want to roll it down in 15 knot breezes. So why have it? For your situation and tastes, I vote for a 110 that you can roll down to a reasonably-shaped 90 with reefed main for comfortable sailing when things pipe up around 20 knots.

PS: We had a 130 on our C-25 SR and liked it, but that was on western Long Island Sound, which is famous for doldrums and generally devoid of the true sea breezes you get on Barnegat Bay.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/27/2008 10:59:39

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2008 : 11:33:44

Perhaps the experts could weigh-in on the main sail head sail dynamic.

After I made the decision on which loft to buy from -
I put a lot of thought into which size of sail(s) to buy and it came down to the reality of handling a sail boat. When we race we generally use our 150. Everytime we put up the 110 after having sailed the 150 we are relieved at how much easier the 110 is to handle. (frequent tacking per previous discussion)
We thought a lot about getting a 135 but figured ease of handling was still more important than that extra bit of performace. Because we made the decision to stay with Hank-on it is a slightly different decision - but perhaps you should think about a 110 and then add a Spinaker or similar sail that would work with your furling set up.
Also, our new 110 is a full hoist whereas the original did not reach the top of the mast, so we do have some extra sq footage now.

Main Sail - relative to what the North guy said and the resultant comments - The North Guy may have been taken out of context because as Dave says, it is a trend, but as Frank correctly states, the reality of our boat contradicts his comment - SO, I think that you need to think about your own experience with your main sail. My experience tells me that the main sail on my C25 is a control feature more than anything else - this may not be the most accurate technical way to describe it but you probably know what I mean - I can sail quite well without putting up my main, So I'm inclined to put more emphasis on what my foresail is doing. When I buy a main sail in the next year or two, I'm not going to buy the most expensive one, I'll buy a good one but I think the off the shelf ones are suitable for our boats. The only question about main sails is loose footed or bolt rope. I believe that the main I have is the original 1981 sail.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2008 : 12:07:18

Stampeder brings up a good point--sailing on the headsail alone, which we often did on blustery days. For that purpose, the 130-135 might be a better choice, since fully deployed (and alone):

1. It drives the C-25 nicely and comfortably in 15-20 knot winds, and..

2. Its center-of-effort is a little further aft than a 110's, making it somewhat less likely you'll have excessive lee helm.

Just a thought... With a roller-furler, genny-alone sailing on a C-25 can be very pleasant. (I wouldn't necessarily say the same for the C-250, which is designed more to be mains'l driven.) If it appeals to you, the 130-135 might be a better choice. How's that for throwing another wrench in the works?

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2008 : 14:30:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Frank Hopper
 Cate, look in the manuals and brochures area in the left column for specs.
Brooke, wary of what?
I have no problem with off shore sails, how could I, every piece of fabric I have bought for years has come from off shore whether it be underwear or a suit. Times have changed.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Frank, Happy said he "crossed off" Scott sails because the sail was made in China. I wasn't casting aspersions on "off-shore" sails -- I'm entirely happy with my genoa. I was just suggesting that if he wanted a home-built sail, or at least one not made in China, he needed not to assume that something from an American sailmaker was American-made.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3494 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2008 : 15:37:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cate
 What is the main sail sq. footage? I have been getting quotes for main sail areas between 118 ft. to 146 ft. We have a standard rig.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Cate,
The Technical Tips Section indicates the main is about 118 sq ft for the std rig and 132 sq ft for the tall rig. I did not check if that varies any depending on the year boat.

My main was sized a bit larger than the original. It comes a wee bit closer to the aft stay but no where close to hitting it. It also extends slightly past the class stripe (no longer on my boat). Others have indicated that if you do class racing, then you could get a protest if it extends past that stripe area. Also, many have indicated that there really is no benefit of sizing the main any larger than the original main based on the dynamics of our sail configurations with the headsail driving the boat. I tend to agree with everyone else about no need to size the main larger.

My main is loose foot and I wanted only one set of reef holes. I got into a whole thing with Quantum over everyone telling me to go with full battens and they kept advising me to go with 1 full batten and the other 3 as partials. Their website even has an article about this but for many, maybe full battens is the way to go. I caved in and went with the 1 full and the rest partial. Now that I have been using the sail, I am happy with what I got at least for my area. As it is, there are partial battens and then there are longer partial battens. My sail has long partial battens - The two lower ones seem to be about double the size of the ones on the original sail.

Edited by - OLarryR on 04/27/2008 15:39:16

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2008 : 16:44:43

It seems to me (and could easily be refuted) that the batten and foot issues are related... If you go with a loose foot in order to be able to shape the sail for light air, then full battens top-to-bottom would seem to conflict with that. To me, the full-battened head (to control the roach) and partials below make more sense for a loose-footed main.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2008 : 12:32:00

My two cents and then some in random order :

Quantum is a higher end loft that specializes in racing sails for a number of one design racing boats and also some of your larger PHRF boats. That doesn't mean they don't make good sails for the cruiser, it just isn't their niche. They also are going to cut mostly laminate cloth. I personally wouldn't shop quantum for a cruising sail.

Any of the lofts you mentioned will get you more than 3 years, if you are racing you lose that last little bit of efficiency as the sails stretch over time. But I would guess you'd get at least 5-8 years of normal use cruising, especially in a non laminate sail. The average life of a middle of the road racer is 2-3 years. A serious racer's sail life is going to be 1 year - regardless.

Most lofts get the bulk of their business from the racing community. Therefore the lifespan of the sails that they quote is probably in those terms. (just a guess)

Our class rules indicate certain measurement maximums that must be met. If you do not race, they don't really apply. Of course the boat has certain sail dimensions that cannot be altered without serious modification.(moving the mast, switching the attachment points of the stays etc., lowering the boom) A few examples: There isn't a Length perpendicular measurement in our class rules for the main therefore you can add as much roach to the sail as the aft stay will allow. When I had a 25 I got an extra 13 to 18 square feet by increasing the roach. Class rules do mandate a maximum of a 155% headsail. If you are just cruising you can go with a 180 if you really want - obviously unless 90 % of your sailing is in wind less than 5 kts that would be overkill. A sail that doesn't meet class rules will not devalue your boat....Just don't get rid of the ones that do meet the rules.

Make sure the loft is sizing you for the standard or tall rig as appropriate.

If the Jib sweeps the deck as opposed to the higher clew that you see on a lot of cruisers you can add 20 or 30 square feet very easily to a 135% sail.

To increase sail life roll, not fold or flake , your main a jib. It is a pain, but will extend the life immensely. The con's to this are that the jib takes up alot of cabin space and the main needs to be removed from the kerf after ever sail.

I've personally have used brand new laminate and regular dacron sails from Doyle, North, Sobstad, and Ullman and either as the owner or the crew member. I have seen them go through their full racing life over time. Every last one still had 5 years of cruising life left on them when the racing life is done. Out of all the lofts you've mentioned, and some that others have mentioned you should see this type of sail lifespan. I'd look for the best balance of relationship and price. The relationship is going to be far more valuable when something doesn't fit just right or the stitching is wearing out around a kringle.

Go with a 135 - bigger if you have a roller furler. It isn't as efficient rolling the jib in to make it smaller, but it is a lot more convenient that changing headsails. This will be especially beneficial in lighter air.

Full Battened Mains in your neck of the woods are probably pretty rare - My guess is that you will see the top two battens run the length of the sail, the lower two will be 3/4or 1/2 the length.

dw

Edited by - on

Cate
Navigator

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199 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2008 : 15:46:15

Okay. After talking with my first mate, we decided that going with our local (on-site at our marina) sail guy was the best course of action. Even though his Neil Pride sails were a few hundred dollars more than others, having the peace of mind that he will ensure the sails fit and be there if anything goes wrong is worth the extra dough.

I don't know if any of you remember a few years ago when we bought a brand new Tohatsu 9.8 XLS online and spent a month trying to get manufacturers defect fixed under warranty. Nightmare. We probably spent the money we saved, in time and gas for that adventure.

Thanks to all for a great discussion and education about sails, sailmakers, and the like.

Edited by - on

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