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Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/13/2008 : 08:58:24

Hi Everyone,

First off, I'm new here. I've been a Catalina 25 owner for 20 years and just found this association and forum for the first time.

I've decided it was time to try to restore/replace some of the old wood. I read some of the posts discussing where to get teak and I've also spent a lot of time online researching teak and looking for sources. The more I read, the less inclined I am to buy this precious wood, so much of it is raised and harvested in various countries in Indonesia through what amounts to slave labor. If I could find a source out of South America I think I would be okay with that, but I haven't found one yet. In the past I've used some white oak, as it can be stained to look very much like teak, but over time it tends to warp. One other alternative I've seen is purple heart wood, which is reputed to have very similar properties to teak and holds up as well in a marine environment. Has anyone here used or knows anyone who used purple heart wood on their boat? Do you know of a source for South American teak? Do you know of any alternative marine woods that are acceptable replacements for teak? Thanks in advance for your knowledge and advice.

"It was like that when I got here..."
C-25, 1984, Hull #4697, FK, TR

Edited by - on

wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2008 : 09:14:55

Dear Stardog,

I am currently rebuilding my entire inside of my boat with all new wood. I Hate Teak, as it is very expensive and hard to come by, so I have decided to use white maple. Maple is a very hard light durable wood with great staining prperties and finish, if you think about it, there is alot of furniture that is made from it and last for years. Also you can use american cherry, which works well, but tends to water stain a bit more when soaked, but no mater what you use, seal it well with a good varnish or epoxy. They make maple plywood that is sold at any of the Major Home Depot style stores, If cabinet makers use it for Kitchens, chances are it will work well on our interiors. As far as above deck I switched to complete plastic HDLC product for hand rails and hatch slider. They never need sanding or refinishing and work well. I use a product call "Easy Care Decking" http://epsplasticlumber.com/colors2.shtml It cuts well and you just have to pressure wash once a year, try it, you'll love it.

Edited by - wmeinert@kconline.com on 05/13/2008 09:16:47

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2008 : 09:51:06

Speaking of plastic, you could look into [url="http://www.plasteak.com/"]PlasTEAK[/url]. I might buy some handrails from them one of these years.

Amazingly, most real teak has gone through some illegal market somewhere in Thailand, Cambodia, Indonesia, or Manaysia, and is therefore technically illegal (but can't be traced back, so so it's ignored). The prices might have a lot to do with the "gratuities" required to get it through. I know nothing about purple heart, but some builders (Bristol for one) have used mahogany for exterior brightwork. It holds up pretty well but seems to mildew more easily. High-end builders are now using a lot of cherry for interiors--not inexpensive but not as crazy as teak, and much prettier IMHO. Among new boats, you see maple mostly in stinkpots--highly glossed--some of it birdseye.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/13/2008 09:52:02

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2008 : 09:55:20

Ipe'?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2008 : 10:31:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Ipe'?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I used it for a deck on my house--too hard, and too splintery for a boat. And it eats drill bits and saw blades like cheese.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2008 : 21:12:15

I can vouch for that. Ipe's pretty nasty to work with, you definitely want to be wearing a respirator. First time I worked with it I didn't bother because I'd never been bothered much by saw dust before. I spent three days hacking & coughing, red eyes, running nose, etc. That said, I still like Ipe for various things, and I think it'd work well on a boat's exterior. I would lean towards cherry, walnut, mahogany, and maple as mentioned previously for interior woods. And I have to agree with the plywood option, I've found gorgeous maple cabinet grade plywood at my local Dunn Lumber for roughly $50/sheet.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 06:10:04

When I was looking for lumber to make companionway trim boards out of, the folks at [url="http://www.noahsmarine.com/"]Noah's[/url] suggested I use [url="http://www.sykestimber.co.uk/timber/afrormosia.html"]Afrormosia[/url] since it stains and weathers to look like teak at half the price. It is also a very hard wood, but it wasn't beyond my very basic abilities to work with.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 08:40:18

I love teak, I love the smell, I love the look, I love the functionality. Teak is great where ever it comes from. Its natural properties include nonskid which makes it perfect for handrails and such. I think SS and Starboard are unfit for locations where a wet hand might need to grasp them to break a fall. I have used some red oak and some maple in the interior of my boats but try to resign it to places where it will not be seen.
Cliff, welcome and good luck with your project.

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 11:26:17

Thank you all very much for your knowledge and expertise and for welcoming me, it's nice to be in the company of those who love Catalinas.

I found more info on ipe, I was surprised to find it has specific gravity greater than water, and so so sinks if dropped in. Wood that sinks is not a problem for my project and I don't have any loose parts, such as bin boards. I have attached hatch doors, a design I put together when I first got my boat, I'll post pictures when I'm done. Ipe looks good too, but then so do some of the other options; mahogany, maple, purple heart. I think any difficult shapes on the deck, like handrails, will be replace with pre-made pieces. Interior, most of it looks okay and I might be able to clean it up and restain it, otherwise I'll replace with something pretty; cherry or maple. The hatch doors I'm still unsure, I'll have to get some samples and stain to see how they will look, but I won't buy teak for this part. I considered the synthetics, but I don't see how I can edge-join to create large enough panels for hatch doors. My other concern is that the synthetics are more flexible and will be all "bendy" when used in this manner.

While I'm on the subject of restoration, does anyone have a recommendation for painting the topsides, my gelcoat is quite oxidized and a good pressure washing didn't improve the look much.

Thanks again!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 12:00:05

I have used Vertglass on the topsides of both my '89 and my '82.

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 12:24:34

Beautiful finish on both of your boats Frank, as close as you could get to a mirror shine. Do you have a preference for the grippy portions of the deck? I've seen some great finishes and some pretty questionable ones also when it comes to these parts of the boat.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 12:31:55

I did the following on mine with success (I have to do the port side before launch tonight...

rubbing compound on bad scratches
3m heavy duty restorer on not bad sections
buff with lambswool to bring out final shine

Edited by - on

skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 15:49:36

I'm in the process of painting the topsides of my boat too. I am doing this because the PO had already painted the topsides and did a pretty poor job of it. If your glass just looks dull, I would seriously think about another approach. When fiberglass gets dull, you can bring it back using rubbing compound (carefully). Its alot of work but will usually bring it back. Then finish with wax.
If you feel you must paint, I suggest the one part urethane from Epifanes. This is fairly easy to work with and gives a great gloss.
As to wood types, I think it makes good sense to go with traditional choices. Each type of wood has its distinctive uses. So for example, white oak makes good ribs, cedar makes good planking, etc. For bright work if it wasn't teak it was mahogany. Mahogany is still fairly available but it too is a tropical than has been over harvested. For the various teak parts on a Cat 25, mahogany would be a good replacement with a very close color match to teak and about the same ware characteristics for the places it is used on the Cat 25.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 16:37:05

The only thing I do to my deck is scrub with SoftScrub with bleach. I want a clean (no oxidation to rub off) matt finish that will not glare.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2008 : 17:18:41

I strongly recommend against painting unless you absolutely have to, as perhaps Steve does. You'll forever wish you hadn't, as Steve probably wishes is PO hadn't. Things like 3-M Fiberglass Restorer/Wax do a good job in one step, particularly when applied with a buffer to really scrub the oxidation and marks off. Most white hulls don't need much more than that. (Colors are another matter, and dark colors worst of all--they often require compounding.)

Frank's approach is a polymer finish--a little like Mop-n-Glow--not a wax. You wipe on about four coats the first time--the whole boat takes a few hours total, and each coat is a little glossier--no buffing involved. (The first coat disappears.) You must remove all marks and stains first--the stuff really emphasizes them, just like varnish brings out the grain in wood. A quick coat every year after that keeps it sharp. I and some others used Poly Glow--it's roughly the same stuff. Tough and long-lasting, although not quite as brilliant as wax.

Yup--Ipe is heavier than water, which is a clue to the fact that it's just a little less hard than concrete. It has been used on the Atlantic City boardwalk among other places. I believe you'll find that sandpaper has virtually no effect on it, and cutting and shaping will be very difficult. If you insist, buy lots of drill bits--you'll break and burn them on a regular basis. (It took something like 25-30 bits to build my deck, and maybe a dozen circular saw blades.)

I never used anything but PTEF deck cleaner on my nonskid areas--it's supposed to protect them somewhat, but it never made mine slippery.

Regarging plastic for handholds, the PlasTEAK handrails and other components have a slightly grainy texture. A friend replaced some "eyebrow" molding (like Frank has on the sides of his '89 cabin) with PlasTEAK because it was so hard to maintain. His wife oils the rest of their teak--they have a lot. You can't tell the difference from more than three feet away.

Have fun with all of the choices!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/14/2008 17:24:21

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 09:56:46

Wow! A lot of good information here, thanks so much!

I'm thinking I will try compound and wax on the topsides, I have a buffer that will make the jobs a bit easier. Any recommendations on compound and wax to use for this? I want mainly to get the oxide off, as it rubs off on your feet, shoes, hands, seat of pants, etc. I don't have to have shiny, but would like to wax to preserve and slow further oxidation.

I still haven't decided on wood, though I went to a local hardwood dealer and looked at a few. The purple heart is very pretty and very purple and very resinous, not sure how it will take to a varnish-type finish? Another option that raised its head while at the hardwood dealer is pecan; I saw some planks and remembered having used it for some furniture way-back-when. It's one of the hardest woods in the world, I believe it's in the top 10, but not sure how it will take to a marine environment. But it sure is pretty and tempting. Again with the tools, I would have to sacrifice a number of drills and blades.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 10:29:36

I'll suggest 3-M Fiberglass Restorer--it's a very mild compound and wax combination--use it with your buffer. If it works, it's a one-step solution. Well, maybe two... Scrub and rinse first to get the worst of that powder off.

Edited by - on

skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2008 : 17:42:50

Pecan is a hard heavy wood that contains hard mineral deposits so it will be hard on your tools. It is generally not recommended in a marine environment. Which seems a little puzzling given it's properties (takes stain, is strong, bends well). I think the reason it's not recommended in a marine environment is because it is subject to rot. Some of the defects in pecan are checks and honeycomb. It also has a rough texture. I suspect that this open structure admits rot. However, for your use and given that it will be varnished and not submerged, it should work well. A whole lot better than purple hart. That stuff is just nasty, heavy, and not very strong.

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2008 : 18:54:53

Okay, after much deliberation, I ordered wood. I decided on white oak and here are the reasons. Last time I made these hatch doors I made them from red oak, which held up well, but had a slight tendency to cup, so over the space of about ten years they slowly got more and more distorted, but they were still serviceable. After about 15 years I replaced them with a "temporary fix" made out of ash, which I never intended to last for more than a few months, but time flies and now the temporary fix is trashed and must go. Don't every use softwood for anything marine. Anyway, my intent ws to replace the temporary doors with some good hardwood, which I'm finally around to now. My research indicates that white oak is much more weather resistant than red oak and is often used for outside applications. It also moves very little with service over time, is highly resistant to rot and insects and takes glues and finishes well. I liked a lot of the other choices in wood also, but the color choices, difficulty of machining and questionable finishing options eliminated those for me. Combine the minimal gains of using another wood with the cost and this is definitely it. White oak is very light in color, so I'll be staining to get it a little bit darker.

One last note; I've ordered the white oak and the cost, including shipping, is about $125.00 as compared to $480.00 + shipping I was going to pay for teak. This is much more reasonable and inline what one would expect to pay for quality hardwood.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2008 : 19:45:04

http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=43

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Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2008 : 08:44:45

Don,

Nice replacement wood parts, I was not aware these were available. Thanks very much for the link, I'll definitely be purchasing some of these parts, I think the grab rails are good candidates for replacement. I've never been a fan of bin boards, and hence the hatch doors. They open side-to-side and are attached by stainless steel piano hinges. I'll post pictures when the project is completed.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2008 : 09:13:12

http://cruisingconcepts.com/

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Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2008 : 20:40:00

Frank,

Those are nice, my original design looked very similar. The difference is due to the Catalina 25 hatch geometry. If you attach a door on either side, it will only open to 90 degrees because it will hit the benches on either side. The solution I came up with was to cut away the bottom of the doors on each side so they swing all the way back to the coaming, then add a third door which opens out and down. The upper doors have a piece of trim which overlaps the bottom piece and keeps water from running in. I had the port lights on either side too, but they were a lot of trouble to maintain, so I probably won't put them into the new doors. I have all of my wood now, so I'm ready to build! :)

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2008 : 10:36:27

Okay, I decided I really liked being able to see into my cockpit, especially when lying at anchor during a storm, so I bought a couple of round deadlights, small ones, so they won't be too much hassle to maintain and won't make it a "bad idea" to lounge against the doors when they are open. I chose polished bronze.

http://www.sailboatstuff.com/cb_fixport.html?gclid=CLebz4v60JMCFQ9cgQodKSLahQ

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2008 : 11:13:54

We can't wait for pix--that's gonna be the coolest companionway in the harbor!

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Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 06:45:21

Thanks Dave, I'll post drawings with dimensions and assembly instructions also, in case you're interested in making some for yourself.

It's going to be the end of June before the deadlights arrive, they're back ordered, but adding them in isn't too difficult.

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