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reefing main for weather helm

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3477 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2008 : 06:18:01

The new main helped with the weather helm, it was worse with the old one, but it is still there. I'm sure the main is overpowering the older jibs.

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3477 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2008 : 07:03:00

Dave ask me...

<<< What I don't understand is why a new main would increase weather helm... It should be much easier to flatten, which depowers it and moves the overall CE forward. Very mysterious......>>>

The new main helped with the problem. It was worse with the old sail. I'm sure the old jib is just so bagged out they are stalling and the main is overpowering.

Looking forward to new jibs.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2008 : 08:37:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andy
 A balanced rudder doesn't effect lee/weather helm, I agree. I misstated that...it just takes the pressure off the tiller.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

From posts over the years from those who made the switch from the original to the balanced rudder, the balanced rudder appears to not only take pressure off the tiller by moving the rudder's center of effort closer to the pivot point (pintles) but the new design also improved overall performance by reducing actual weatherhelm.

Edited by - dlucier on 05/21/2008 08:45:28

ClamBeach
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Response Posted - 05/21/2008 : 08:48:45

>"but the new design also improved overall performance by reducing actual weatherhelm."

Hafta remember that at Nationals time... boats with the new rudder should owe boats with the old one say... 10 secs per mile?

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2008 : 09:06:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 ..the new design also improved overall performance by reducing actual weatherhelm.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Call me a skeptic, and I switched from the old to the new. It was great--reduced pressure and flutter--but the helm remained at the same small number of degrees to weather, exactly where I wanted it.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/21/2008 09:08:01

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2008 : 09:14:12

A well tuned, well balanced C25 should normally have light, comfortable tiller pressure, regardless of whether it has the original rudder or the balanced rudder. If your boat has a heavy helm, it isn't solely because the rig isn't tuned properly. It might also be because your boat is overpowered (too much sail area), or because the sails are poorly trimmed, creating an imbalance between them.

As the angle of heel increases, the hull shape in contact with the water becomes increasingly asymmetrical, which creates more drag on one side than the other. If you want to reduce tiller pressure, you need to think about all the factors that are in play. Tuning the rig, by itself, is only one part of the puzzle.

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Renzo
Admiral

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621 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2008 : 09:59:42

I don't mean to be contrary but I have an original style "unbalanced" rudder and I find that with the proper sail combination and trim combined with a tuned rig I have almost neutral pressure on the helm in all but heaviest air conditions when racing. I find that a some helm pressure is desirable as feedback as to how well you are trimmed. When I first got my boat I used to come back to dock with sore shoulders and aching forearms from wrestling with the tiller. Now after of years of experimentation, record keeping, tweaking the rigging and sailing technique helming the boat is painless.

Too bad though - I wish I had arms like my hero - Popeye

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2008 : 10:18:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 ..the new design also improved overall performance by reducing actual weatherhelm.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Call me a skeptic, and I switched from the old to the new. It was great--reduced pressure and flutter--but the helm remained at the same small number of degrees to weather, exactly where I wanted it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave,

Regardless of which rudder you have, one can trim the sails to produce the desired amount of weatherhelm. Heck, you can even trim the sails to compensate for a lost rudder.

Even though you had the same amount of perceived weatherhelm between the two rudders, is it at all possible that you could have been compensating less through sail trim with the balanced rudder?

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2008 : 10:46:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Dave,... is it at all possible that you could have been compensating less through sail trim with the balanced rudder?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Nope. Not remotely possible.

I wasn't a finnicky trimmer--in all but a hard beat, I tended to sail slightly more eased than many people do (but still seemed to get good speed). In most conditions (except beating in a big blow), my helm was a few degrees to weather, which is good for speed and safety. If the new rudder improved speed in any way, I think it was more likely due to reduced drag from the improved foil shape (which also virtually eliminated flutter). But I tend to doubt it.

Edited by - on

andy
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2008 : 11:48:28

Points everybody's bringing up are all valid. It's the idea I mentioned earlier in the thread. The variables (and combinations of them) are too numerous to properly trouble shoot certain problems in a forum context. You can get suggestions for starting points and things to try, but then you have to go sail... and have the experience to evaluate what the changes you made did. That's one of the things I love about sailing. Just the differences between the three C25 types are huge if you're talking about tuning them for max performance. Like how much weight are you carrying and where is it? Sail condition and type...etc.

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2008 : 13:04:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Dave,... is it at all possible that you could have been compensating less through sail trim with the balanced rudder?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">If the new rudder improved speed in any way, I think it was more likely due to reduced drag from the improved foil shape (which also virtually eliminated flutter)...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave,

That improved foil shape probably produces more lift, pulling the stern windward, thereby reducing true weatherhelm. If that is so, then less compensation in the sail plan would be required which might equate to more overall boatspeed.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2008 : 21:25:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 ...That improved foil shape probably produces more lift, pulling the stern windward, thereby reducing true weatherhelm. If that is so, then less compensation in the sail plan would be required which might equate to more overall boatspeed.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ya, maybe... but if so, then it would seem I'd have fewer degrees on the tiller, which did not seem to be the case. I think you're talking about nano-knots here.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/21/2008 21:27:29

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