Association Forum - Beating gas prices

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Beating gas prices

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2008 : 20:31:42

It is heartening to read projected behavioral changes. I have always maintained that americans will only conserve when it is painful not to. Think of how dramatically this will reduce your environmental impact. A likely outcome is additional money and interest in research that will eventually get us away from petroleum dependence, and even though that isn't likely to produce change for a decade or more, it is much better than waiting until we are actually running out. Increased usage of mass transit will allow improvements in service that will let it become the viable alternative that it was fifty years ago when were abandoning it for for cars. The oil companies didn't do this to us, we did it to ourselves it by our choices: Shell didn't make me move to the country, oil companies didn't ask for decades of federal price controls on their product, we didn't want a gas tax to fund mass transit, we chose to drive behemoths two blocks for a loaf of bread, and the list goes on. The end result can be good, but it hurts getting there.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2008 : 00:54:23

Everyone driving a car knows at any given time what price fuel is however if you ask homeowners how much they are paying for a KW no one knows. This just goes to show you that only when it hurts the pocket book do people pay attention. My point is that fuel just wasn't priced high enough in the past to be important. In my opinion the allocated family budget on fuel will not change that much over the next 10 years the reason being that most will change their behaviors to adapt instead. Have a look at this [url="http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2007/01/the_price_of_ga.html"]web site[/url] to show how fuel consumption and price have a net effect.

My wife and I own 2 very different cars, a Toyota Echo and the F150. We have been carpooling the Echo (her and I) since we work about 10 minutes away from each other. The F150 stays parked nearly all the time. Let's say gas would be 5 times the amount it is today, I would probably work from home at least twice a week and consider mass transit like Europeans do. Another effect is that your workplace and commercial areas would need to be close to home. No longer would people drive 50 miles to get to work or go shopping it just wouldn't be cost efficient.

How much will it really take to drastically change people's behaviors towards fuel consumption? Be honest, even at twice or three times the current rate you would probably still tow your boat.

Right now my boat is 100 miles (158KM) away from my home. The Toyota Echo has an amazing fuel efficency of 54 MPG (5,2L/100KM), so I need 4 gallons (16.5L) for the round trip. At $1.25/L that's $20.54. I race every Wednesday night and go up with the family on weekends. My truck consumes about 2.2 times this amount so about $42.

It's not a question of affordability rather than reasonability in my case. I can just not fathom the idea of paying $100 round trip to go sailing 2 hours on Wednesday nights. However I probably would go as high as $100-$150 for sailing with the family during a weekend. So here is what the figures would look like before it would change my behavior:

----$/L Echo F150
1X 1.25 $20 $42
2X 2.50 $40 $82
3X 3.75 $60 $126
4X 5.00 $80 $168
5X 6.25 $100 $210

No more sailing for me.
Weekends only.

Now here's the good news. By the time fuel goes at 4 to 5 times the current rate, people will probably all drive fuel efficient cars like Echos, Hybrids (trucks even) or 100% electric. In conclusion technology and market economics will follow suit and keep our budgets fairly the same. We'll still sail in 10-15 years but will probably get there more efficiently but at the same cost. By the way the only reason we are still not driving electric is that the battery technology is still not up to par and expensive, that is the next revolution in transportation. Today electrical motors are far superior to fuel engines, they just lack the power supply.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 05/27/2008 01:38:07

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2008 : 06:30:24

Steve,

Yours is a good summary, I'm guessiong that you are aware that Calgary's transit system is a model for many others. The no fare zone in downtown gets guaranteed ridership which prevents many short-run trips, and the system links to many key generators. Add to that the "Plus 13" (?) system downtown that makes walking a comfortable option year-round, and you have a system that takes many vehicle trips off the network by creating alternate modes.

The other thing Calgary has done well is its trail and park network that makes cycling a very realistic option. In our Calgary office, we had one guy kayaking to work - thats a bit extreme, but it shows that alternates to the car are possible if we are a little more creative in our urban design.

The thing I don't understand is why people think the electric auto will create a better world. Most hydro power is still generated through natural gas or coal. We are still transferring energy from fossil fuels into motion. Even hydrogen power depends on electrolysis (electricity) to create the hydrogen. Certainly there are green electric companies out there, but we have the technology to not drive at all (telecommuting for me..., urban design, alternate modes, etc.) and still make the daily commute. Of course manufacturing and hands on work need to be at a given location to do their job, but many of us could just as easily write a report or do calculations from a treehouse with internet as in a fancy office (that actually sounds kind of fun).

Remember that the key ingredient of asphalt is "asphaltic cement" AKA tar, AKA low-grade oil. As long as we are building roads we are using up oil. This extends to every other item produced from oil by-products which range from plastics to pantyhose.

Right now I have an employer woo-ing me and about the only reason I would go to work with them is that they are offering a work-from-home option. I would have to be in the office one day per week. That means an 80% savings on commuting costs. My current employer has balked at the suggestion of working from home one day a week. I'm not an eco freak, but I still like the idea of saving money and the environment.

Considering that I drive just over 100 km per day, that savings is worthy of consideration.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2008 : 08:50:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 ...Most hydro power is still generated through natural gas or coal.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2008 : 09:19:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 ...Most hydro power is still generated through natural gas or coal.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sorry Dave - Canadianism there - we often refer to the electrical utilities around here as "Hydro" as in "Ontario hydro just closed a turbine at the Nanticoke Plant..."

When I was living in Georgia whenever I referred to the hydro bill being too high everyone thought I was talking about my water bill.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2008 : 12:44:42

Market forces will prevail and innvoation will occur.

I believe a big part of the answer is electricity heating/cooling our homes and powering our vehicles. The source of the electricity will be nuclear. Europe is heavily into nuclear. We can do it too although it will take time.

In the mean time Canada has an incredible amount of oil mixed up in sand. It is now cost-effective to bring that oil to market. Canada also has loads of natural gas.

We love Canadians!

Edited by - Nautiduck on 05/27/2008 14:04:12

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2008 : 13:40:11

Thanks Nauti...

Here is Wikipedia's take on Canadian Oil - some of the facts may surprise you...

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Canada

Canadian conventional oil production peaked in 1973, but oil sands production is forecast to increase to at least 2020 Including the portion of oil sands reserves considered by government regulators to be producible at current prices using current technology, Canada's proven oil reserves were estimated at 179 billion barrels (28×109 m3) as of 2007, placing it second only to Saudi Arabia. Over 95% of these reserves are in the oil sands deposits in the province of Alberta. Although Alberta contains nearly all of Canada's oil sands and about 75% of its conventional oil reserves, several other provinces and territories, especially Saskatchewan and offshore Newfoundland, have substantial oil production and reserves. Total Canadian oil production was about 1.2 billion barrels (190×106 m3) in 2006, giving Canada about 150 years of reserves at current production rates.

Over 99% of Canadian oil exports are sent to the United States, making Canada, not Saudi Arabia, the United States' largest supplier of oil. The picture is complicated somewhat by the fact that Canada has a highly sophisticated energy industry and is both an importer and exporter of oil and refined products. In 2006, in addition to producing 1.2 billion barrels (190×106 m3), Canada imported 440 million barrels (70×106 m3), consumed 800 million barrels (130×106 m3) itself, and exported 840 million barrels (134×106 m3) to the U.S.[17] The excess of exports over imports was 400 million barrels (64×106 m3).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - Prospector on 05/27/2008 13:42:07

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1608 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2008 : 18:18:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">the "Plus 13" (?) system downtown that makes walking a comfortable option year-round<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It's called the Plus15, it being 15' above street level. Which is kinda kooky because 15' is about 5M (meters). I don't remember it prior to the arrival of metric but I guess it was here

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> had a "light bulb" moment the other day while filling the truck on a trip. A while ago, 89 Octane gas was 10 cents/gallon more expensive and that was enough of a difference to keep me from using 89 Octane since the Mfg. suggests 87 anyway. But now, 10 cents is a small percentage difference in price<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
several years ago Marketplace (a consumer TV show) did research on on gasoline octane and concluded that there was not significant benefit of having higher octane, unless your vehicle requires higher octane. My Nissan Maxima requires 92 Octane fuel. I've occasionaly put some lower octane fuels in it - and found significantly lower performnace along with engine pinging. Marketplace said that there was some benefit to the engine due to the detergents that are added to higher octane fuels but not to increased mileage.
I've put higher octane in my Chev 2500 4X4 at times when pulling my C25 - I could not tell if there was any benefit.

At the lake I was highly amused by a Stinkpotter with a very large (at least 27' - coulda been 30') powerboat with a very deep V hull and a very large sunbridge who launched his boat with a Ford F450 dually. He pulled into the launch ramp parking lot at high speed, did a donut in the gravel parking lot, backed down the ramp at high speed, He and his two young sons launched his boat, sped through the mooring balls, taking care to slalom around about 10 mooring balls, then he zoomed down to the other end of the lake and back. When he got back to the ramp I was just climbing out of my kayak and so we had a chat. He complained bitterly (multiple F word bitterly) about the cost of gas and claimed that he would have liked to stay out all day but he was almost out of gas. He put $100 of gas in his boat and thought he'd get a day's boating out of it. He got about an hour.
As a result, He figured he'd only come back once or twice more this season. He figured that gas for his hour of boating too F'n much. I agreed.
He figured he burned $100 gas money for the truck.
He backed his big Ford down the ramp, retrieved his boat with twin rooster tails of effort, hopped back into his truck and burned rubber all the way up the ramp, fished tailed across the gravel parking lot and hit the highway with a screech of rubber. The really cool part was that he forgot his two sons - aged 10 and 12 on the dock. So, while their Dad was roaring off down the highway I let his kids take my Kayak for a spin. About 45 minutes later Dad was back. They all thought it was hilarious, and it was. The kids said they wanted a Kayak and Dad told them that was a 'Totally stupid idea'.
The 12 year old rolled his eyes at his old man and said 'you'd just want to put an F'n motor on it anyway.'

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2008 : 19:19:27

Mike, you gave me a good laugh there. So typical of what we have experienced last summer. My wife asks if the boat you mention is all black and white? She reminded me that last year such a boat (and boater attitude) came up giving a big show only to find out that his engine wouldn't start, he left pissed off and all.

Prospector, the future of electricity is Nuclear which is now considered a green alternative. Many new technologies make the waste 100X less radioactive. France is probably the most up to date technology wise on Nuclear energy and reprocess its nuclear waste to reduce its mass and make more energy.

The technology is there the missing link right now is the mobile power storage (batteries). People don't mind charging their cars while it's resting what they do worry about is the occassional long distance needs. Imagine a 100% electric car that would be as powerful if not more than your current gas engine one that would only take 1 hour to charge and can drive for 12 hours at a time on the highway. A laptop battery would probably last all week.

Calgary promotes itself as the energy capital of Canada. You Americans are indeed our best customers. We are doing quite well economically these days. Y'all go fill up that big SUV now you hear?

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 05/27/2008 19:24:09

SCnewbie
Navigator

Members Avatar

166 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2008 : 20:13:29

Another reason electric cars will be better than gas even if the electricity is prioduced by fossil fuels is that the generators in a utility run significantly more efficiently than the 6 banger in my jeep.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1608 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2008 : 20:52:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">My wife asks if the boat you mention is all black and white?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It was Black and white. He was on the lake quite a bit last summer. I won't be sorry about his absence.
I was at the lake most of the day,last sunday, I was the only boat in the water much of time. Powerboaters were making similar trips as this guy, launch, take a quick trip down the lake then retrieve. I think the longest any of them were in the water was about an hour.

We are at a cross-roads (perhaps a tipping point) regarding fuel and energy and energy storage. Without boring you with too much detail, I'm currently studying Photovoltaic Energy - a couple of facts:

1)Oil Sands players are working on getting Nuclear energy involved in seperating the oil from the sand. Current method is strip mine the sand, then extract the oil with steam. Uses a lot of carbon fuel generated steam,with large tailing ponds and devestated topography. The proposed nuclear powered method would be energy efficient, would involve little to no water and would not disturb the topography.
2) New battery technologies are recieving lots of government handouts and lots of industry attention. You will see cars in a couple years with 42 Volt batteries that give cars several efficiencies.
3) Plastic batteries with 1/5 the weight and 10 times the capacity have of current technology. Expect Electric cars & trucks that are market acceptable (cost & performance) to be 10 years away from production.
4) Photovoltaic roof shingles were invented 25 years ago, and are now cost effective for new construction.
5) Photovoltaic collectors (solar panels) will be in excess supply within 12 months. Consumers should expect up to 50% lower prices in the next 18 months.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2008 : 21:42:49

Just heard over the news that car traffic has diminished 4% in the USA due to gas prices. I don't know about this but do fossil fuel electric producers filter (or burn off) most of the pollution release in the air? Interesting stuff Mike.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2008 : 23:01:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Blackburn
 ...do fossil fuel electric producers filter (or burn off) most of the pollution release in the air? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ironically, Mike, "burning off" the particulate pollution that used to be the biggest annoyance from coal plants just creates more CO2, which we now believe is a bigger problem.

Coal and oil are economic and environmental disasters... Nuclear is worse--we have absolutely no solution for long-term disposal of the waste, and every nuclear plant and its temporary disposal pool is a ripe terrorist target as well as accident waiting to happen. And just you wait--we'll eventually discover that very large scale wind and tidal power operations will change atmospheric and ocean patterns in ways that affect the entire environment. (Yup--we never thought we could overfish or pollute the vast oceans, either.) Current solar technology can produce barely a fraction of a precent of what we use commercially, industrially, and personally, and like wind, requires massive storage capabilities... There's no free lunch.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...generators in a utility run significantly more efficiently than the 6 banger in my jeep.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Had one...

Almost anything is more efficient than that thing. (My more powerful Toyota Highlander is 25-30% more efficient and 100+% more reliable.) But can your electric vehicle effiently store and then deliver that power? That's the current challenge. The longer range challenge is the utility has to go away.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/27/2008 23:08:23

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 07:29:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Blackburn
 
Prospector, the future of electricity is Nuclear which is now considered a green alternative. Many new technologies make the waste 100X less radioactive. France is probably the most up to date technology wise on Nuclear energy and reprocess its nuclear waste to reduce its mass and make more energy.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The other possible solution that is more popular in Europe than it is here is power from waste stations. Basically a turbine hooked up to an incinerator. Enviro's will say that the bottom ash is heavily contaminated, and that the flue gasses contribute to global warming. My reply to that is that the contaminants in the bottom ash were inthe waste already, and have been concentrated, not created. The flue gasses can't be worse than what is put out by a coal or NPG burning station, and that the scrubbers should be cleaning most of the exhaust anyway. I have not researched this beyond the propoganda from both sides.

Today Toronto trucks its waste to landfill sites in Michigan - there is intense political pressure to keep the garbage closer to home for obvious reasons (jobs, cost of transport, road safety, wear on infrastructure) - imagine if instead of shipping truckloads of junk 500 km away, we kept it here, burnt it and returned the energy to the grid. It just makes good business sense to me at a time when the cost of transport is going up, and our supply of electricity is coming under pressure.

Edited by - Prospector on 05/28/2008 07:32:49

britinusa
Web Editor

Members Avatar

USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 08:03:34

I'm on Chris' side of this subject. We should all strive for zero impact but in reality we breath so it's not an option. But we can work towards it.
Solar powered hot water heating is the most cost effective way to reduce energy consumption at home without impacting utility. Buying local produce most often results in lower energy consumption (possible lower transportation demands) and recycling anything and everything is another.

On the soapbox, converting to low energy lamps dramatically reduces energy consumption for lighting, yes the lamps have mercury but so does the energy converted by the fossil powerstations, only the lamps mercury can be reclaimed if correctly recycled.

Still riding my bike to work(2nd week).

Love this subject, especially when we can't go sailing!

Paul

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 09:35:42

What this thread points out is how much fossil fuels have contributed to our fuel needs. We have been spoiled for a long time where a single source is our method for fueling so much. It also shows that replacing these fuels will be more of a consolidated approach that just a simple A replaces B. Everything and anything we can do to replace our dependency on a single source will benefit all of us. Whether it is solar, wind, geothermal, or such, one single replacement is probably not in the cards. At least at this point in time.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1608 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 10:17:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Nuclear is worse--we have absolutely no solution for long-term disposal of the waste, and every nuclear plant and its temporary disposal pool is a ripe terrorist target as well as accident waiting to happen. And just you wait--we'll eventually discover that very large scale wind and tidal power operations will change atmospheric and ocean patterns in ways that affect the entire environment. (Yup--we never thought we could overfish or pollute the vast oceans, either.) Current solar technology can produce barely a fraction of a precent of what we use commercially, industrially, and personally, and like wind, requires massive storage capabilities... There's no free lunch.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You cannot be too optimistic nor too pessimistic about the human race.
I'm involved to a small degree, in a Nuclear Power Plant project proposal - I am very impressed by the efficiency of it. Nuclear energy has come a long way since the 'China Syndrome' and Canadians don't build Concrete structures the way Russians do. If you've ever been to Cuba or Eastern Europe, you will have seen first hand what I mean. Canadian Nuclear is safe and I would not oppose a Nuclear plant being built in my town.
I could not disagree more with your assessment of solar energy, I am studying an existing model and community where single family dwellings, built at a cost less than 5% over non-solar construction generate more electricity than they can use and are proposing to sell it's excess back to the local utility. Payback for the 5% initial additional cost will be paid back in 12-18 months. Western US and western Canada are leading North America in Solar innovation and installation, but have yet to catch up to Europe, where generally, there is less Solar exposure.

Edited by - stampeder on 05/28/2008 10:22:12

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 10:47:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 I could not disagree more with your assessment of solar energy,...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I guess I'd better buy some lithium futures. It'll be interesting to see how that model adapts to a steel mill, some 60-story office buildings, a 24-hour subway system, and a few thousand high-intensity street lights. I'm all for it! Actually, I've been thinking for years that NYC is obsolescent, but real estate values don't support my theory.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 11:57:01

Just to follow up the original post. My experiment went exactly as Dave predicted. I've now used 3 tanks of gas without subsantial difference in mileage.

Filled up with regular (87 Octane) this morning.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 12:57:30

Some oil company's profits are falling back a little...

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.