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Couple's first sail / disaster strikes.

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Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/27/2008 : 21:50:38

Saturday the Admiral and myself went out for a nice sail. Winds were light and a bit squirrelly with gust once in a while maybe in the 7-10 knot range. Not much of a challenge but sunny and fun. In the distance we saw what appeared to be a sailboat motoring around with it's mast on the deck. We figured it was someone just wanting to get on the water for the day with not time to raise the mast and set the rigging. They came closer and we could see a couple motoring back to the marina, mast on deck, sail wet, rigging everywhere. The mast had failed.

Back at the marina later we saw the boat again (24 ft hunter) in a dock and we walked over to inspect. The mast was damaged at the deck end. The deck had a few scrapes and marks, but the rigging looked intact. I noticed that the turnbuckles where turned all the way out with almost all the thread showing.

A friend at the dock informed us that the couple had just bought the boat and were out for their first sail. I commented that the rigging may have been way too loose resulting in the failure. He agreed, It looks like they did not have the rigging tight enough and the foot of the mast broke free from the deck. It had to be scary.

I have not met the couple yet. I fear they may throw in the towel. I will do what I can to help them get going again. I can check with the marina office. Maybe they will give me their number. I only wish they had ask for some help.

Turk

www.turk.mysailboatblog.com
2003 C250 WK #663
Northeast Ohio
Mosquito Lake/Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2008 : 22:19:30

Good for you, Turk. Having a mast come down is not a good way to start a sailing career, and I suppose could summarily end it. They did well to get everything under control and on board. But now they need a helpful soul!

One reason sailing isn't as popular as powerboating is that (hopefully) many potential boaters intuitively grasp that sailing requires some knowledge, while powerboating seems to only require knowing how to turn a key, and frees you from all speed limits and other rules (as many seem to think). Then again, some beginning sailors apparently think you can step into a 2-ton boat, point it toward the water, and "sail away"... without understanding the systems and principles that make that happen.

My philosophy is you start with a Sunfish (or similar) to find out what sailing is, and then you pick your boat--almost any boat... But then you get somebody to help you understand the principles, systems, and handling of that boat. As said many times here, sailors like you are generally anxious to help newbies with that introduction... although (with all due respect) organized professional instruction could save their lives.

EDIT: BTW, I've seen the Hunter 240 mast fail--its extrusion is like a Coors Light can.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/27/2008 22:21:17

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5378 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2008 : 22:36:55

Whoa - what a horror story! I could not imagine much happening worse than getting dismasted, even under light conditions and while not more than 16 miles offshore.

So that got me thinking -- I checked the stays and shrouds all around and the fittings, they all seem fine (thanks Dave). And I've seen racers testing the tension of the stays and shrouds with a clever looking guage - looks like a flat card with a springy thing, an arrow and some calibration marks on it.

I can even borrow one if I needed it, but how do you know how to officially "SET" the tension? Is there a spec for each?

Forestay, backstay, upper and lower shrouds? What are the settings for each?

I know a lot of folks just tighten the stays until they seem tight enough, and eyeball the mast rake fore & aft, and side to side. And it's probably good enough, but in critical conditions, overly tight, or overly loose tension could cause mast failures.

I'd really like to know the exact setup, just to be sure I don't end up like the weekend sailors you just described.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2008 : 22:53:35

Talk about scary. Here is a photo from another forum. Swan 48 that got caught in a storm.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2008 : 23:10:03

Tough story as it must have been a great high then the lowest except for a sinking. Makes you wonder how it will end with good help and sharing a life of sailing and a story. Some how the players could have had other things on their minds and couldn't see that anything could go wrong with maybe a borrowed boat. You could write your own story and it would fit.

I saw a mast fall over from a moored boat and had just noticed the mast bounce back and forth with loose rigging before the fall. We rowed out to rescue the boat as the mast stayed along side upside down rubbing itself against the hull. None of us could stand up on the boat and had to crawl everywhere to complete the rescue. Later after calling the owner he said that he meant to tighten the lock nuts on the turnbuckles and he had just sprayed the deck with WD40 as he was told that it would help protect the deck from the sun. This is now our story so....

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2008 : 23:13:22

Having been dismasted once, I can attest to how scary it is (my forestay parted at the mast hound). I was only on a small-ish lake and could have have swum to shore if it became necessary. Fortunately the mast missed me on the way down & I just got whipped by the shrouds a bit. Having your mast come down that far off shore would be terrifying, especially for nuggets. Good for them for figuring out what to do to get themselves sorted and getting back into port on their own power. Hopefully you can help get them going again and they haven't been scared off for good.

I'd like to find out what the proper tensions are as well. I've gotten a Loos gauge so I can at least get them set to the same tension, and I've got a book on how to do it properly.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2008 : 23:17:57

Spraying the non-skid with WD40 - that wins the booby prize!!

Jim, how is that new knee doing?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2008 : 23:18:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 ...I checked the stays and shrouds all around and the fittings, they all seem fine (thanks Dave).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yup--all new from CD in 2004--you should be good for quite a while.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 00:37:55

Randy, my knee is working but not good enough to get on board. I get tested each time at therapy which is tough on the rig but that means it won't fail when I will need it. I will be off the Forum for a while for family matters. Graduations and the next Saturday we celebrate our sailor Dad who made it to 102. He passed away on May 23 so we have out all the pictures and stories to share on June 7th. He sailed in the South Pacific on a snipe that he and the Seabees made on secured islands in 1944. He passed on his passion of boats to me. I shared the Forum with him so thanks to you all.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 06:31:39

Jim,

Sorry to hear of your father's passing. It sounds like he had a full and adventurous life. As a WWII vet, he was indeed a member of the Greatest Generation in every sense of the term. I'm sure your June gathering is going to be a wonderful celebration.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 06:40:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 
So that got me thinking -- I checked the stays and shrouds all around and the fittings, they all seem fine (thanks Dave). And I've seen racers testing the tension of the stays and shrouds with a clever looking guage - looks like a flat card with a springy thing, an arrow and some calibration marks on it.

I can even borrow one if I needed it, but how do you know how to officially "SET" the tension? Is there a spec for each?

Forestay, backstay, upper and lower shrouds? What are the settings for each?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I also have access to a loos gauge, but I haven't been able to find tension specs for the rig. In the owner's manual it says that the shrouds should deflect about an inch with 60 punds of pressure applied, or words to that effect. I can't see guys going around their boat with a fish scale pulling it to 60 pounds, and measuring the deflection.

I have tightened my rig with the lowers slightly more tensioned than the upper shrouds - is that right? Should the uppers take up the strain first? Does anyone know of a proper spec for our standing rigging? Is there a difference between tall rig and standard rig?

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 08:34:21

I had a loos guage and used it on Zephyr a couple of times. The idea is to get the tension in the ballpark on both sides and then go sailing. The only real way to adjust tension is while underway and adjusting the leeward side. Too tight will be easy to spot. The leeward side will not budge. Too loose is a bit harder. I suggest that the leeward shrouds moved at best a half inch or so laterally.

BUT - most rigging fails because of unseen corrosion. it's spring - time to oil up the turnbuckles and make sure that they move "FREELY." Those closed turnbuckles are very suspect as there is no way for water to get out. Open turnbuckles are better but less aesthetically pleasing, so I'll bet that the majority of c25's and C250's have the closed variety. Again, you should not feel any resistance from the threads. If the threads give way, you just lost your rig.

Since we are talking about standing rigging. Now would also be a good time to get hoisted up there and make sure all of your fasteners are intact and that the shrouds are not distorted or have any fractures. The standing rigging should run through the boots and NOT taped down in any way. I have seen a lot of folks replace their mast boots and weld them to the shroud with rigging tape.

LUBE everything. Corrosion can cause failure. SV Lysistrata was dismasted once and the previous owner oversized the whole rig including the mast as he did not want it to happen again. The failure was in this case - in the wire. As you are going up and going down - swing out with a rag soaked with WD 40 and liberally apply to the wire itself.

Roller furlers need to be checked and lubed too... anything and everything associated with the stick should be considered suspect until confirmed to be solid. Sail mag had a good article about a delivery captain and crew that failed to check out the rigging before an offshore departure. Cotter pins were missing or broken and as a result many failures were experienced.

And lastly, have a plan. Do you have a bolt cutter big enough for the job? Never mind the hacksaw - too slow. Do you know where and how to pull all of your pins to free yourself? In conditions rough enough to dismast, you do risk a hull fracture if the mast spends too much time alongside. This IS what this sport is all about and I find that far too many folks know far too little about their rig.

Sten

DPO C25 #3220 "Zephyr", SR, FK
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - Solomons Island MD

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 08:46:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 I have tightened my rig with the lowers slightly more tensioned than the upper shrouds - is that right?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">No. The uppers should be the primary support, since they support the mast at both the top and at the spreaders. I tuned with no guage, but just tight enough that my leeward upper was never loose, but my leeward lowers were just barely loose in moderate winds (10-12). My backstay could be waved maybe 8-10" with a good yank. There are lots of opinions, and racers generally keep looser rigs than cruisers. If a boat is on a mooring where it will pitch and roll, it should be on the tight side to avoid shocks against the swage fittings and chainplates. That's all I've got...

Didn't somebody like Bill Holcomb once put together a tuning guide for the C-25? I don't see it in the Tech Tips.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 08:57:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Roller furlers need to be checked and lubed too...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Check the documentation before you do that... The few furlers I know of, with Torlon or similar bearings, are only supposed to be flushed with fresh water--they specifically say no oil.

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piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 10:29:11

Turk, hats off to you for offering. Too bad you didnt get to them first. Maybe they will be better sailors after this. Lets hope so.
Dave you are right re fresh waster on furler. I have 2003 and its specifically says "fresh water only".
Steve A

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 11:28:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 EDIT: BTW, I've seen the Hunter 240 mast fail--its extrusion is like a Coors Light can.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now I'm not a Hunter hater (my friend has a mid 90's H28 and it is one good looking boat

), but I encountered an H260 for the first time on a trailer recently and was not impressed. In designing the H260, it appears Hunter simply truncated a much longer boat giving it a rather bulky appearance for its length. The hull form itself looks pretty good and fairly beamy, but from the rub rail up it looks a bit chunky and not as smoothly designed.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 13:01:26

Don... If you see that 260 again, try oil-canning the hull with your hand. I think you'll be amazed.

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piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 13:10:38

Don, maybe I got bad eyes, but the h260 kinda looks like a longer version of the c250 but with more windows. Here is link:http://album.sailboatowners.com/detail?photo=2202
Steve A
PS I am sure I will get heat on this one!

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 13:24:09

Check the documentation before you do that... The few furlers I know of, with Torlon or similar bearings, are only supposed to be flushed with fresh water--they specifically say no oil.

that is correct. i'm talking about the forestay components. they need to be lubed just like standing rigging.

sten

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 14:59:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 Don, maybe I got bad eyes, but the h260 kinda looks like a longer version of the c250 but with more windows.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Although I've only seen C250's in pictures, the C250 looks more like an H25 than an H260 (bottom picture)

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 16:15:38

The new H-25 (not to be confused with the older H-25) is more of an updated H-240, which it basically replaced. The H-260 and H-270 (later inboard WK version of the 260) were much bigger boats--beamier (9'), roomy inside, and ugly IMHO, especially with the ski-boat graphics they put on for several years. Those models and their numbers changed too rapidly for me to keep up--I quit paying attention after I scratched Hunter off my list.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/28/2008 16:17:48

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2008 : 17:25:02

One thing I like about the Hunters is the cut away transom. It makes it much easier to get someone back on board and to get to the dink, etc.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2008 : 16:12:43

Interesting placement of the engine remote control.

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/29/2008 : 17:50:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Interesting placement of the engine remote control.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The fellow who owns that boat has an excellent [url="http://h260.com/index.html"]web site[/url] listing his mods, mast raising, etc. Very well done. The placement of those controls allows him to steer and control the outboard all while standing at the helm. He has a very good connection between the rudder and outboard so has excellent control from the standing posiion.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2008 : 00:13:33

I sailed a H260 recently, with a wheel and mid cockpit sheeting. Sailing ergonomics were excellent and I quite enjoyed sailing it.

However, it was tender (water ballast) and I would not have liked the cockpit for gunkholing or racing. Not enough room for more than two people.

Edited by - on

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