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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Capri 25 Specific Forum

Window sealant

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Fleet
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USA
151 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/29/2008 : 14:04:41

Just bought a 1983 Capri 25 last week and have been initiated into the leak-a-thon. I've followed the posts on using the Butyl tape, but I am still unclear on what to use to seal the glass to the window frame. Butyl tape, butyl tape/sealant or just sealant? If sealant, what type and brand.

Thanks,

Fleet

Fleet
Kamikaze
1983 Hull #397
Lake Guntersville, AL

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2008 : 18:35:00

fleet,
I would not use butyl tape, the mess and cleanup is a long and hard process. I would use a clear 3M sylicone between the glass and the frame. The sylicone should give you just the right amount of expansion. I wpuld then use 4200 between the frame and fiberglass. The big trick is to remove all of the old material, and apply a good solid bead for the new application.

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Pirate Princess
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2008 : 09:42:12

I just pulled my windows and took the frames to a powder coating facility, they did a beautiful job on the frames and they look brand new. I also had new glass made because the old glass was etched from years of just sitting in the weather and they would not come clean from the silicone (which I tried last year) and other gooey stuff.

I have taken the "new" frames and with the old splines and am having the glass company assemble the windows for me. I am waiting to take delivery - some time next week.

I plan to install the windows using butyl tape. I purchased 1" wide rolls of black butyl to match the frames. I found that even with silicone the windows still leaked because the gaps were too spacious and too much room between the glass and the channel of the frame even though I filled it. I also found that the silicone does not adhere too well to the metal of the frame. It came off way too easily.

The glass company will be replacing the splines as the old shrinking ones were a key to the whole leakage problem.

If the glass company can seal and make the windows watertight and still allow for expansion then my only challenge will be insetting into the boat.

Overall I will be spending about $300.00 for the windows. $200 for the powder coating, and appox. $100.00 for new tempered glass and assembly. Hopefully they will look and act brand new.

Good luck, it was one of the most dreaded parts of restoring my old Capri.

Karen

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1981capri
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175 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 09:31:55

I would still recommend that you get a cover to protect the cabin top and windows from the sun. I think the main problem with the black anodized window frames and the car rails is that they get extremely hot in the direct sun. We were out on a 94 degree, sunny day and they were so hot you couldn't touch them. All that heating causing expansion, and contraction when cooling, is bound to break the seal no matter what sealant you use.

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Pirate Princess
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37 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2008 : 23:31:41

Here is an update on my windows which I just pulled and rebed. On another forum here there is a diagram on how to replace/re-bed the windows. I also found on the Catalina 30 forum the same drawing with added handwritten notes about the issues with that suggested fix. Following is what I found.

Now keep in mind that I am not an expert and dont recommend the fix that I did. My Capri 25 is a 1980 that sat for 15 years neglected so the windows leaked and the gaskets had shrunk. I pulled them last year and did a fix using silicone which failed miserably. I have since gone to several websites including boat, RV and believe it or not fishing hut websites to check out window fixes. It seems that there are as many opinions as knowledge out there. I did make some mistakes and willing to share them with what I have gleaned thus far.

First go to the topic on this forum and look at the diagram of the suggested window fix by Catalina. Now look at this link with notes suggested by the Catalina 30 forum - same diagram but issues with what was suggested. http://www.catalina30.com/TechLib/LeakingWindows/leakingwindows.htm

But there is good news at this forum. You can buy the original glazing spline that is installed for the Capri 25's for $1.00 per foot. It is listed on this link - yeah!!!!!

First and foremost the diagram has a major flaw!!! AT least with my boat this suggested fix will not work and I suspect with other Capris will not work either. If you have actually pulled your frames and glass you will notice that there are 2 channels in the frame. Looking at the "fix" they suggest that your glass be up against the outer most exterior part of the frame. Originally the glass (at least on mine) was mounted/glued to the frame ring with the little ridges on it (the inner ring). Take a close look at your frame and you will notice that the inner ring where the glass was mounted is a smaller circumference than the outer/exterior ring.

The glass on my boat was cut so that it barely even fit on the inner ring. If I were to move the glass toward the exterior to mount it to that ring there would be gaps between the glass and the frame because the outer ring is a larger circumference than the small inner ring.

I also think that the glass is safer from damage bedded on that inner ring.

Now look at the fix that the Catalina 30 forum has recommended. I have read over and over again that using silicone is not the best fix. I agree as it does not stick to the frame very well and has little stretch especially considering the gap in that channel where the glass rests. The Catalina 30 forum suggests using polyurathane which is used in the auto industry to adhere windshields to cars instead of silicone.

I would not recommend doing this either. I tried it, that stuff is the black plague of windows. It is like using mozzerella cheeze, mixed with silly putty and tar. It made a big mess and was out of control. So I took it all out after trying one window and started all over.

Let me add at this point that earlier in forum I had mentioned I sent my frames to be powder coated and they came out beautifully for about $200.00. Dealing with glass companies to have new glass made was a different story. It was a nightmare and I tried 2 companies, both companies obviously did not want to make new glass let alone rebed them into the frames for me.

So I tackled the job myself.

I purchased butyl tape in a 1/4" roll in black about 30' long (I bought 2 of these rolls).

I laid this roll of butyl on the ridges where the glass was originally bedded. I took a bamboo skewer and rolled it over the entire length of the butyl to flatten it just a bit. I then placed the glass on the butyl and pressed firmly. You could probably also use flat butyl that is about 1/2" - 3/4" wide. I then wedged about 20 wooden clothespins using the ends since they are wedge shaped into the gap in the frame and the newly bedded glass (hey I am a girl and dont have a workshop with real wedges). I placed full wine and rum bottles on top of the glass to weight them down (what else would a sailor use?????). I let them sit overnight with the clothespins wedged in to push the glass against the frame and the bottles to assist in weighing them down.

Hindsight I probably should have used a hairdryer to heat the whole deal up and push that butyl even flatter. By morning the glass seemed to have a nice bed in the butyl as it had squeezed out a bit but not to the point of messy. That part comes next.

The gap now left in the frame between the glass and the exterior edge was probably about 1/16" - 1/8". Not enough to jam another roll of butyl in there. So I filled the gaps with flowable silicone. You can purchase this at an auto parts store and it takes 3-4 little tubes to do 4 windows. The small tubes are easy to control. Then I placed the glazing spline and had to really work to get it in there to act as a spacer/wedge for the glass to exterior frame.

I once again used butyl - 1" wide black - to re-bed the frames into the boat. I put the windows in the holes dry and marked them with a pencil. Then placed butyl tape around the metal frames and carefully placed the windows into the boat. This is NOT a one person job. Someone needs to be inside the boat to make sure the window is in correct position before squeezing the bezel to the frame. One of the windows had a badly cut hole so placement was important. I was happy to see butyl squeezing out around all sides on the exterior and around the window frame. To me that indicates a good seal.

Just a note: You will apply about $4.00 worth of butyl and squeeze out about $3.00 worth leaving you with an impressive "butyl booger ball". But getting the seal is a good thing.

Now it is supposed to rain tomorrow and I am hoping for a good downpour to test the windows.

It is done and one of the most dreaded projects that I had to do. I dont mind a little dribble but hate real leaks. Does the fix look pro? Not pro but not bad either. Will it make the boat go faster? Probably not, but hopefully drier.

I will update after the rain.

Karen

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Pirate Princess
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2008 : 18:28:14

OK another window update.

As the windows took to their new "bed" the butyl squeezed out a little more, which was good. I still have no leaks.

The extra butyl is easy to trim and clean. I used a putty knife with a wide blade and trimmed off what I could. Then I used Goo Gone (the citrus smelling stuff) with a rag to clean off the butyl - squirt the Goo Gone on the rag and work with it that way. You dont need agressive things like MEK, acetone, mineral spirits, or denatured alcohol just the simple stuff Goo Gone (note: NOT Goof Off), works wonders and cleans the butyl quite easily.

I did use 4200 to rebed all the thru deck hardware but chose butyl for the ports. The area you are bedding is a rather wide strip around the window and too hard to effectively bed with 4200 and you dont get the thickness with 4200 that you can with the butyl. There is also gaps that the caulk may not fill effectively where the butyl sort of "settles" in.

I would recommend butyl for the ports.

I also used butyl to rebed all the jib/genoa/spinnaker rail tracks. That was more intense to align, bed and clean up but I had leaks there and the old foam underlayment had disentegrated. The butyl seemed to work there but I also used 4200 at each screw hole (dont know how that mix will work over time but we shall see). I laid the butyl on the rail and took a blunt tool and poked a hole thru the butyl at each screw hole and reset each rail working a screw hole at a time.

If you decide to do this, I would recommend working with the shorter rails first to get a feel for it. The longer track took approx. 2-3 hours per rail to do and is a 2-person job.

All in all I am quite happy with how it turned out as I have the leaks solved thus far.

Karen

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