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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/16/2008 : 17:30:25

Here is a great link to follow the SF to Hawaii race. There is a Cal 20, a 24 footer, and a couple of 27 footers in the race.

http://www.sfbaysss.org/TransPac/transpac2008/race_tracker/position.html

Be sure to read the log pages, too.

Its something I'd really like to do someday. I think I could get my Catalina 25 to meet the minimum requirements for about $5K assuming I could lease or borrow a liferaft!

In reality I would prefer to hold off on this until my next boat.

Indiscipline 1978 FK SR #398

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2008 : 17:35:33

Yeah, if you bolted the coach top down and added some stringers to the hull it would be be able to handle it. The "coracle" approach has always been consider a good bet in extreme weather. Tiny boats bob around and roll over and over, whereas large boats break apart and sink. Not sure I'd want to spend a week rolling over and over in 30 foot waves, but it's better than sinking.

Edited by - on

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1314 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2008 : 18:31:19

Go do it Jim... should be a lot of fun!!

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2008 : 10:23:13

Jim, thanks for posting. Its amazing to view their track. The skipper of Wylie Custom 27 is doing amazingly well.
Steve A

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2008 : 10:06:25

Jim, what did you figure for required modifications?
I was looking for a link to the requirements on the SSS site but dinna see one there.

[edit: found inspection sheet]

I'd always figured a big part of it would be 'elbow grease'...

Boat mods:

Enlarge cockpit drains (convert to scuppers)
Epoxy bond hull to deck
Reinforce standing rigging anchor points
Reinforce transom at gudgeon attachments
Install an extra gudgeon/pintle set or two.
Reinforce anchor locker lid
Add (3) hold downs for pop top each side
Fabricate emergency rudder.
Double bilge pump systems. (electrical + manual)
Auto steering system (vane or electrical)

Electronics/Electrical

2 GPS units (1 fixed 1 handheld)
2 VHF units (ditto)
SSB
EPIRB
Strobe
Solar panels
LED running lights

Personal:

Jacklines
Hardpoints
Harness

Of course, the question would be why do this to a C25 rather than go out and buy a different boat.
I guess the answer is "to be the first C25 in the Transpac/Pacific Cup".

[edit 2]

Link to photo of Cal 20 prepared and ready to go to Hawaii

http://www.sfbaysss.org/TransPac/transpac2008/emergency_rudder_designs/black_feathers_primary_rudder.jpg

Edited by - ClamBeach on 07/20/2008 10:46:34

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2008 : 11:20:47

Quote:" Of course, the question would be why do this to a C25 rather than go out and buy a different boat.
I guess the answer is "to be the first C25 in the Transpac/Pacific Cup".

It could be done! The old school C25's are pretty seaworthy overall. What did Dave Bristle figure out? A 43% keel to displacement value - which is way higher than most production boats of today. The rigging should be upsized and the deck plate area beefed up with extra layers of fiberglass and bigger hardware. The rudder would be my personal choice for what is gonna fail next? issues..... Beef it up! Get a professional rudder! The stock rudder is just a piece of crap in my opinion for any offshore work. Looking for trouble. And don't get me started on pintles and gudgeons!

Not the right boat, but Jim's old school C25 could probably handle it. I'd say do it! I'll loan you my life raft, EPIRB, whatever else you need! Patrick Childress went around on a C27, regretted some of it, but now lives on a Valiant 40 with a cute wife - it was HER boat! - and writes for Blue Water Sailing mag. Heck, if you do it in a C25 - B. Butler will probably give you a slick C470 for free! Just don't anchor anywhere near me!

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - Swansea, MA

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2008 : 11:25:30

BTW - After 5 and a half weeks of soloing about sans wife, she went to Kansas to visit family and to make sure Frank Hoppers boat actually left

- I now think solo sailors are nuts! She comes home to SV Lysistrata and I tonight! Thank gawd!

SO - I think you would need SSB or a sat phone as well! Just so you can stay sane.

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - Swansea, MA

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2008 : 22:52:37

I agree the rudder and its attachments are the key weak points, probably disqualifying the C-25 from such duty--not just because of the hardware, but because of the design. Broken rudders are common in offshore storms, and the C-25, with it's exposed, unsupported, transom-hung rudder is a rudderless boat waiting to happen.

If one is determined to take the risk, one other thing I'd suggest is raising the companionway sill to a level somewhat above the top of the transom. "Old school" blue water boats are built that way--you have to climb up and then lower yourself into the cabin. The cockpit can be pooped full of water, but it won't take the boat down.

Me... I wouldn't try to walk 1000 miles through lion country in Africa, and I wouldn't try to sail 2500 miles across the Pacific in a C-25. To me, they're roughly the same things--just asking for it. But that's me. I feel no need to prove anything to anybody any more.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2008 : 23:44:05

>"transom-hung rudder is a rudderless boat waiting to happen."

Eh? What's wrong with a transom hung rudder? They are found on a lot of classic blue water boats.
Tahiti Ketch, Dreadnought 32, Westsail 32, Contessa 26 etc.

Edited by - on

redeye
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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2008 : 06:32:25

Double backstays.

regards.ray

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2008 : 09:10:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClamBeach
[brEh? What's wrong with a transom hung rudder? They are found on a lot of classic blue water boats.
Tahiti Ketch, Dreadnought 32, Westsail 32, Contessa 26 etc.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Good examples! From what I recall, each has a keel-hung rudder--perhaps on the transom, but with a keel or skeg in front of it and a bronze foot holding the bottom of the rudder. The don't have spades dangling down from gudgeons that are all above the waterline. Huge difference.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/21/2008 09:11:36

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2008 : 12:16:03

I already have almost everything on the list. No EPIRB, SSB, or Strobe. No liferaft. I don't have a alternate way of raising the main (my topping lift could be converted). I don't have a trysail and track, but mainsail with double reef down to 40% size is acceptable, I do have that.

I agree on upgrading the standing rigging to the next size up, beefing up the rudder, beefing up the "chainplates" for the standing rigging.

I would really want to convert to a real traveller, and add a dodger and bimini. I know its a race but I would need sun protection.

I would really want a wind vane.

I would use a satellite phone instead of SSB.

I am leaving on a 3 week, single handed, ~1000 mile voyage in 4 days. I am going to include a non-stop run home of 150 to 200 miles just to see what it is like!

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2008 : 12:26:25

I can't believe how well Polar Bear is doing, it is an Olsen 30, so I looked it up. That is a 30 foot boat that weighs 3500 lbs, 1/2 of our weight. There is one for sale here in San Diego for under $10K.

What a ride that would be.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2008 : 12:31:57

While there's all this "what if" let me pose another. Would there be an advantage to converting the mast to a keel stepped mast rather that deck stepped? I wonder what would be involved in converting from a masthead sloop to a cutter?

Enjoy your trip. We, of course, live vicariously so we will expect lots of art upon your return.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2008 : 14:35:37

Jim,
If you decide to go, I've got an EPIRB you can use. It needs a battery, but should be good otherwise. I have a friend who can help you outfit your boat for solar if you're interested as well. He's got panels on both of the Mini-650s making the Vancouver to San Diego run right now.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2008 : 15:56:16

You like ocean sailing and are intrigued by going long distances. Fair enough and sounds like fun. I'd suggest you look for a boat that is better suited for the task. Get a solid platform and then invest and work on it.

Sailing a C25 (designed for lakes and bays) thousands of miles could be a fun adventure if all goes well. If, on the other hand, a hellaceous storm arises then you are in serious trouble and I don't care what mods you made. Transom-hung rudder, deck stepped mast, lightweight ports, lightweight hatches, and do you trust your life with those 30 year old keel bolts?

It's like what the Police Chief said in "Jaws." You're going to need a bigger boat.

If this is a part of the hobby you enjoy then I really think you'd be well off getting a boat that was built for what you want to do. My .02.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 07/21/2008 15:59:00

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2008 : 19:48:47

"do you trust your life with those 30 year old keel bolts?"

He's already replaced the keel bolts on his boat.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2008 : 20:07:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">He's already replaced the keel bolts on his boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Oh, OK. Well then go for it!

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2008 : 21:08:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 I can't believe how well Polar Bear is doing, it is an Olsen 30, so I looked it up. That is a 30 foot boat that weighs 3500 lbs, 1/2 of our weight. There is one for sale here in San Diego for under $10K.

What a ride that would be.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We have a guy with an Olsen 30 at our racing club. He told me he can do 20+ knots since the boat planes on the water. Must be real thrilling. I read somewhere that you can multiply by 10 to get the road equivalent on the feeling. 6 knots being 60 KPH (38 MPH), must feel like going 200 KPH (125 MPH).

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2008 : 21:58:17

>"The don't have spades dangling down from gudgeons that are all above the waterline."

What you're interested in is a skeg or keel hung rudder. Unfortunately, most modern boats don't have them... even those considered 'blue-water capabable'.

I think part of the change is due to the improvements in weather forecasting.

30 years ago you were pretty much on your own after you left coastal waters. As a consequence your vessel needed to be able to endure whatever nature might throw at you. So you had boats built like the proverbial 'brick $hithou$e'.

Today, with satellite imagery, weather pattern analysis and computer based forecasts, the strategy is to get out of the way of severe storms rather than to endure them. Most of the time this works out fine... most sailors aren't going to challenge Cape Horn anymore. (If I was, I surely would want an old school bluewater boat)

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2008 : 23:30:45

1500 miles from nowhere in a boat that cruises at 8 knots... You can't forecast far enough out for that--it's gonna catch ya.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Unfortunately, most modern boats don't have (skeg-hung rudders)... even those considered 'blue-water capabable'.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Island Packet, Pacific Seacraft, Shannon, Amel, Caliber, Oyster... All in current production, some pretty "modern", and every one has at least a skeg that supports and protects the rudder, and protection for the prop and shaft. You can have your weather-faxes on your Jeanneau, Bendy-Toy, or even your Swan--I'd recommend you stay within the confines of the Med or the Caribbean. You can't just run--you'll need to hide. Few things on this earth are as magnificent, and as frightening, as a Pacific storm.

But you know me... Old and cautious.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/21/2008 23:31:44

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 11:41:21

>"You can have your weather-faxes on your Jeanneau, Bendy-Toy,"

Well, you're kinda crossing things up there. That class of lightly constructed charter boat have 'other issues' with Blue Water besides having a spade rudder.

Fact is, if I were going cruising I'd rather have the skeg hung rudder myself... but not because I think it would fall off in rough weather. Proper engineering and construction can take care of that threat. The main reason those skegs are there is to protect the rudder from underwater hazards like cables, fishing gear, anchor lines, uncharted rocks etc.

Worthwhile design attribute for a cruising boat? You betcha.
Necessary for blue water capability?... not really, I think that Swan would do quite nicely. I'd take one.

There's always going to be debate about what constitutes a blue water boat.

Full keel? Skegs? Keel Stepped Mast? Bridge Deck Cockpit? Tiny Round Portholes? (etc etc etc)
Yeah, If I was rounding Cape Horn I'd for sure want them all. The odds of encountering extreme condiions are pretty darn good.

Following the cruisers routes in the proper season... like the milk run to Tahiti in April or Transpac West Coast to Hawaii in June? Nope. Lots of fairly modest boats make those runs just fine... literally by the thousands.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 11:46:48

I wouldn't do this race in a Catalina 25, in my first post I said "better wait for my next boat..."

However, I am interested in getting my Cat 25 as fit as possible for near coastal cruising.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 22:05:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClamBeach
 >"You can have your weather-faxes on your Jeanneau, Bendy-Toy,"

Well, you're kinda crossing things up there.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Only because that's about what you have to stoop to to find spade rudders on big boats--that and race-designs like Swan. <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The main reason those skegs are there is to protect the rudder from underwater hazards like cables, fishing gear, anchor lines, uncharted rocks etc.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...IYHO.

IMHO, the main reason is to prevent the rudder from breaking off at the worst but most likely time--in a storm. The other reasons are worthy, too.<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...I think that Swan would do quite nicely. I'd take one.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Many serious cruisers wouldn't. I hear: mains too huge, hulls too flat, keels too deep, rudders too exposed, interiors and tankage limited,... all characteristics of a racer. Beautiful boats, fast, well built, good ocean racing pedigree, substantial one-design fleets... Everybody's mileage varies.

Edited by - on

Champipple
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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 22:11:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 I can't believe how well Polar Bear is doing, it is an Olsen 30, so I looked it up. That is a 30 foot boat that weighs 3500 lbs, 1/2 of our weight. There is one for sale here in San Diego for under $10K.

What a ride that would be.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Olson 30's are very frequently compared to the Evelyn 32 that I race. I've been on them - no way in hell would I do a transpac on one.

Nor would I do it with a transom hung rudder as my primary. I'd want something like this...

Edited by - Champipple on 07/22/2008 22:19:11

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2008 : 06:37:43

I'm not the only here that has been in big waters, and I'm talking really BIG waters. On an aircraft carrier it's no cake walk!

There's more to a trip like the transpac than the boat.. Not hours of lone sailing but Days!
There surely has to be as much prep for the mental rigors as for the stress on the boat.

Hat's off to all that do it, but Island hopping is my choice venue.

Paul

Edited by - on

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