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Drilling Holes, Mounting Items on Cabin Exterior

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MartinJW
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USA
241 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/17/2008 : 22:05:05

Hello Everyone,

I've been searching here, but I can't find the exact answer to my question. (It's probably too elementary to appear here.) So, I'll lead with my chin and ask anyway.

I'm thinking about installing boat hook brackets, a fire extinguisher bracket (inside the cabin), maybe some hand holds, and possibly a couple of cam cleats - all on the top/outside of the cabin. Here's my question:

Can I simply drill holes in the fiberglass and mount these with (stainless steel) machine screws and nuts?

Do I need a special drill bit?

Is there anything I should be aware of in terms of techniques for drilling into fiberglass/Gelcoat/wood laminates?

Should I drill over-sized holes first, fill with epoxy, and then drill final holes with the desired diameter?

For very low load items, can I simply use wood or sheet metal screws?


(I do realize that I might need to use backing plates or fender washers for some of these applications.)

Any suggestions, comments, ideas?

Thanks!

Martin

C25/250 Int'l Ass'n Member
2008 C-250 WK #973
"Bluebell"
Lake Tahoe, CA/NV

Edited by - on

britinusa
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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2008 : 22:38:18

Martin, you have the right ideas. No wood screws though.

My oft repeated trick when screwing into fiberglass is to turn the screw into a self tapping/drilling by just cutting a slot along the side of the screw with a dremel. The slot creates a sharp edge that acts like a drill bit. That edge allows the screw to cut it's way into the ridgid fiberglass outer skin without the skin cracking.

Drill and fill! One of the first tips I learnt on this forum when we started to realize that JD needed a few things

Paul

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/17/2008 : 23:14:54

Martin, I use only SS machine bolts and nuts on the exterior. I do not use wood or sheet metal screws. My theory is that everything on the exterior of the boat must be able to withstand a pounding and stay affixed. Regular drill bits are fine. I usually drill the correct size hole and then tape it off inside with duct tape, fill with penetrating epoxy, let stand a few minutes to soak the core, and then drain the epoxy out. I then bed the bolt with a good marine adhesive caulk like 3M 4200. Use good size washers on the inside to spread the load, especially on things like cleats. Since penetrating epoxy (I use Git Rot from the marine or hardware store) does not last long - 15 minutes once mixed - it is best to drill all of your holes at once and do the process for them all.

Others will tell you to overdrill the hole, rout out the core for 1/2", fill the hole with epoxy, let harden, and then re-drill the right size hole through the cured epoxy. That is, of course, best but I find that the method I use is sufficient to protect the core and avoid problems. You will note that Catalina used the drill and caulk method for the through deck fittings such as the winches which go through cored material.

That being said, I am about to mount a fixture forward of the mast for on-water mast raising and lowering. This fixture will not be permanently on the deck and I will use the more elaborate process in this instance since there will be no caulk used for the bolts.

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jking
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Response Posted - 07/18/2008 : 10:59:29

Randy:

Do you mean that Catalina used Git Rot (or similar) to treat holes in the core prior to mounting deck hardware, or do you mean that Catalina simply drilled the holes and applied bedding caulk without treating the hole with epoxy?

John

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 07/18/2008 : 11:50:30

I don't think Catalina treated the core with epoxy, just drilled and caulked.

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jking
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Response Posted - 07/18/2008 : 13:12:19

No treatment of wood core? I wonder how many people have had issues with this. I noticed a small leak into the cabin thru a bolt hole at the forward end of the genoa track yesterday-I guess I should pull the track and re-bed it. I assume the genoa track (as well as the turning blocks, clutches, and winches) are bolted thru the core, as opposed to solid fiberglass deck.

Anyone else have any better ideas?

Edited by - on

essen48183
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143 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2009 : 08:09:06

Caulk and 5200 eventually fails. I have a friend who got one hell of a deal on an enourmous yacht that requires $20,000 in fiberglass core and stringer work... all was caused by owner mounting by drilling and sealing with 5200. I have had to rebuild a mast step for same reason. When shopping for boats this last year I turned down several due to core problems at stanchions, mast step screws, hinges, cleats that were improperly mounted and I didn't want the headache of repairing the damage. Think about it. When is the last time you removed all the hardware and stachions and resealed them with 5200 as preventative maintenance? We all wait until it fails and the core is ruined.

It is not hard to do it properly and does not take long. If you plan on keeping the boat, or plan on selling it to someone for top dollar... any time you penetrate to the core, seal it with HD filler mixed with epoxy. Get some of those West system measuring pumps. get some 404 high density filler powder. Overdrill a little bit. chuck a bent nail into your drill and carefully ream out the core a little bit (1/8") put masking tape on the back of hole if it goes all the way through. Mix some West epoxy and pour it in. Walk under and poke a hole and drain it out back into your mixing bowl then retape. Add high density filler to almost peanut butter consistency and pack it in the hole.

Then you have a stable base with which to drill and mount fasteners. Still us 5200 to seal the hardware. What you want is to notice the leak inside the cabin when the 5200 fails.... not notice that it failed because your core is rotten, soft, and delaminated.

Just my 2 cents. A fiberglass boat with a rotten coring is sold at junk prices or sold to a sucker who will spend months becoming a fiberglass pro... don't ask how I know this. :-)

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2009 : 09:06:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by essen48183
 ...Still us 5200 to seal the hardware.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I agree with everything up to the 5200... Polyurethane caulk (5200 and 4200) are good for things like keels that'll never come off again. For deck hardware, you want to be able to remove and re-bed every 10-15 years, depending on your climate and the usage. (Stanchions can get a lot of stress). Polyurethane, especially 5200, is a strong adhesive that can damage gelcoat and fiberglass when something is removed. Polysulfide (Life Caulk and others) or a composite (LifeSeal) forms just as good a gasket, lasts as long, and can be removed fairly easily.

This is an old thread, but another detail that's been mentioned many times in the past: When you finally mount the hardware, hand-tighten until the caulk just squeezes out around its base, and then let the caulk cure for the specified time (like 48 hours or more). Then tighten the nuts from below with a wrench--creating pressure on the cured caulk. Try not to let the bolts turn, so the caulk maintains a seal around the threads. All of this gives you the best possible gasket. Then the excess around the base can be easily zipped off with the help of a blade.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/13/2009 09:07:57

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 02/13/2009 : 10:11:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">No treatment of wood core? I wonder how many people have had issues with this. I noticed a small leak into the cabin thru a bolt hole at the forward end of the genoa track yesterday-I guess I should pull the track and re-bed it. I assume the genoa track (as well as the turning blocks, clutches, and winches) are bolted thru the core, as opposed to solid fiberglass deck.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I can vouch for this and so can others. The biggest hole in my deck was made by Catalina for the king post that connects the mast to the keel. They simply drilled & caulked it. The caulk began to fail & I got water into the overhead, enough to have damage due to freezing (cracked the liner). I removed the post and let it dry out over a period of about two months, then used a version of Randy's method (thinned epoxy painted on the inside of the hole with the bottom taped off to catch runoff, a couple of coats) to repair it.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
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844 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2009 : 14:14:35

We'll say it again: The ONLY place 5200 should be used on a boat is the hull to deck joint! Other than that, it belongs NOWHERE on a boat.

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Steve Blackburn
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1091 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2009 : 17:48:57

Am I glad you asked this question. I need to install a deck organizer and some deck mounted blocks this season. I wouldn't of thought to do the epoxy fill and probably just caulked. It makes lots of sense now. Thanks everyone.

Full step by step instructions:
[url="http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/sealing_the_deck"]Sealing Deck Penetrations to Prevent core rot[/url]

I'm so resourcefull.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 02/13/2009 17:50:39

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 02/13/2009 : 17:59:21

Steve, nice find!

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delliottg
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Response Posted - 02/13/2009 : 18:20:31

Steve,
One thing to look out for when it comes to your deck organizers is to make sure that you leave clearance at the front end where it'll be next to your jib tracks. Whoever mounted mine (DPO or DPPO) didn't do so, and I had to remove the organizer to get my mid-ship's cleat onto the track. If they had mounted it about 1/8" further away there'd have been no problem. The cleat itself fit past the organizer just fine, it was the turning block for the jib sheets that wouldn't go. It's effectively captured on the track unless I remove hardware to get to it.

And now to answer the obvious question, why didn't you go from the other end? Most likely 5200 sealed tracks, I couldn't budge the track tips on the nearer the cockpit end where the cleat needed to be.

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Steve Blackburn
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1091 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2009 : 20:09:38

Thanks David. I'm saying a deck organizer, but it will probably be just a few deck mounted blocks to lock clutches. I`d like to bring to the cockpit: Main halyard, Spin Halyard, Boom Vang, Reefing line. I just need guidance on getting things to the cockpit. When it's time, I'll post a new request thread. No need to answer me now as I still have 4 months of waiting ahead of me. Will also research our forum postings as I`m quite sure this topic has been covered before.

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delliottg
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Response Posted - 02/13/2009 : 20:21:47

Let me know, I've got all those things on my boat, a three gang organizer on my starboard side to three clutches (main halyard, 1st reef and spinnaker halyard), and a stacked two gang on my port side going to two clutches (jib halyard, 2nd reef), plus a downhaul for my jib run to the third, single clutch outboard of the first two. These were all installed by someone else, but I can certainly supply you with photos & moral support.

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Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 02/14/2009 : 00:30:07

Then I think I have the perfect boat to base on. That`s exactly what I want to do. That with my winches on the coamings will make this an easy to single hand boat. Thanks David. I'll get in touch through the forum soon.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 02/14/2009 00:30:39

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 02/14/2009 : 08:26:10

Adding a bit of advice to that of others.... when considering drilling holes in the boat... sleep on them first. Agonize over them second. Rethink the whole plan third. And then if still convinced of your plan... drill.

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zebra50
Captain

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408 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2009 : 12:21:40

My two cents worth. For deck organizers and line handling I can see topside drilling/mounting, but I mounted the boat hook and fire ext. in the cabin. Below you can see the boat hook, idea taken from tech tips,

and the fire ext. mount

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 02/15/2009 : 17:19:19

I've got my boat hook in the same spot. I like the fire extinguisher placement.

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delliottg
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Response Posted - 02/15/2009 : 19:39:51

We've got one fire extinguisher there as well, plus another 10lb extinguisher mounted directly under the magazine rack. We had a scare once with our stove & basically had to reach across flames to get to the extinguisher. I decided a second, larger one was a good idea.

I also like the placement of the grab bar underneath the breaker panel. Is that standard, or did you put it there? Our breaker panel is flush, not pooked out like that, so I couldn't use the same bar, but I'd really like to have a bar there to aid in getting out of the aft berth.

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 02/15/2009 : 19:49:54

We raised the companionway cover up higher on the head bulkhead. It's allow storage beneath between the bulkhead and the lower cabin step.

Paul

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Tom Potter
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Response Posted - 02/15/2009 : 20:51:51

David I have that same "grab bar" however on my boat it is actually used as conduit for the LPG line going to the stove. Knowing the LPG line runs through it I'm reluctant to use it as a grab bar.

Edited by - Tom Potter on 02/15/2009 20:52:38

delliottg
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Response Posted - 02/15/2009 : 23:20:04

Tom,
Is yours actually a '98 model year? We're only a few dozen hull numbers apart, but if you've got that bulge under the breaker panel & the factory installed (?) propane system, yours is definitely different than mine.

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Tom Potter
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Response Posted - 02/16/2009 : 08:30:52

David, from what I can tell, it was one of the last 97's.

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 02/16/2009 : 10:51:00

My 2000 has that same conduit (grab bar). We also have the "bulge" where the breaker panel is located.

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zebra50
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Response Posted - 02/16/2009 : 13:30:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 We've got one fire extinguisher there as well, plus another 10lb extinguisher mounted directly under the magazine rack. We had a scare once with our stove & basically had to reach across flames to get to the extinguisher. I decided a second, larger one was a good idea.

I also like the placement of the grab bar underneath the breaker panel. Is that standard, or did you put it there? Our breaker panel is flush, not pooked out like that, so I couldn't use the same bar, but I'd really like to have a bar there to aid in getting out of the aft berth.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The bar was there from the manf. I think it carries some wiring from the panel to the cabin lights and mast and/or the line from the gas for the stove. You are correct, it is a help in extricating from the berth.

Edited by - zebra50 on 02/16/2009 13:33:29

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